Zen Golf

Nish: 0:00

Every story has an ending. Does our quest to play the top 100 courses in 10 years have a good ending? I’m Nish, I’m Jim, and we’re here to guide you through this golfing journey. This is the Top 100 in 10 Golf Podcast Bonus episode, zen Golf.

Nish: 0:18

As some of you may know, I recently had a club fitting, which was an amazing experience, and I am very happy with my clubs. However, I have had two rounds out on the grass and that has left me questioning my ultimate choice of clubs. Jim’s been with me the whole time and we’ve been at the sim, and I don’t think I’m exaggerated by saying I have been nailing it on the sim. However, agreed, we played that round first, didn’t we? And I was actually thinking about what the return policy was and how clean the clubs need to be to go back. Um, now I think I do have the answer to this, which is what we’re doing today.

Nish: 0:55

Uh, so we’re joined by will stubbs, and will is the md, no less, of zen green stage. Yep, and they’re over in she Sheffield, so I think he’s going to be able to shed some light on what’s going on. So, first off, will, hello, glad to have you on the podcast. Yeah, thank you for having me guys. Now, before we delve into my awful golf, we’ll start a little bit by finding out about your golf journey and how you got into golf.

Will Stubbs: 1:19

I was my father’s a golfer. He was a golfer and then he got into golf as the industry. Um, and there’s a picture of me, which I’ve got on my wall, actually naked at the top of the mom and dad’s stairs with one of those plastic golf clubs.

Jim: 1:31

It’s a classic this wasn’t last week so I’ve been.

Will Stubbs: 1:36

I’ve been playing golf since I could walk, basically. But then when you get, when you go older, you get friends and stuff. I stopped playing golf, stopped playing football, stopped playing everything else, got into skateboarding. And it wasn’t until I was sort of 15 or so. Um, when I was like, right, I’m gonna try golf. I don’t know why, I think it was me and my brother used to live across the road from a like a little par 3 course, like it’s like a little if you’re from sheffield, grey’s pitch and putt, everyone knows it and we used to sneak on there and then we used to take like a handful of balls, chuck them down, play wherever you can, and then the guy used to come out the hut and used to just run, grab your balls and then into the woods and then wait for him to disappear back on. So that was my, that was sort of me getting back into golf and then from there, introduction into golf was based around thievery. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, thievery, um, yeah, I suppose that’s the skateboarder in me, the anarchist.

Will Stubbs: 2:31

But yeah, I think from there it’s just play, you know and then from there we used to go to b shift just down the road, play golf there. Same again there’s a, there’s like a road and then there’s an abbey, and then you could sneak on the fourth hole. So we just sneak.

Nish: 2:45

It’s bad this is a lot of sneaking. There’s a lot of sneaking.

Will Stubbs: 2:48

There’s a lot of sneaking but yeah we come to what a group of thieves.

Nish: 2:53

I’m sorry now um, um so we, like you, need to confess. I feel like this is confession, confessional booth, isn’t it the?

Will Stubbs: 3:01

microphones. It’s these. If it was just, if it didn’t have the, the new branding on this, then I’d be you know, it’s the new branding um, but yeah, from there then it was just playing, we used to just, and then we, you know, we got a membership at a local golf club and then became, you know, fell in love with gonna get, trying to become like elite golfers, you know, and then that took us down that journey, and then women and alcohol came into it, and then you, you forget about it. And then you come back into golf when you realize that you want to spend time with your best friends without having a phone, without looking at every two minutes, without figure one worrying about work. But, you know, and having those four hours where you can spend with your friends and all you’re doing is cheering each other on, it doesn’t happen in any other sport. So our job is to try and make golf more accessible, more engaging and more real, and sort of that’s my journey now and sort of it’s aligned back to my passion, which is trying to make people enjoy this game.

Will Stubbs: 3:59

And, to be fair, you know, if you said to your friends like fancy, coming with me this weekend, it might rain. It might not rain. You know we’re not. We’re going anyway. We’re going to be out for four and a half hours, maybe five, depends how bad you’re going to be frustrated. You’re going to be frustrated and you’re going to have 20 30 kilograms on the back of you and you’re going to walk out in the countryside. People tell you to f right off, won’t?

Nish: 4:26

they.

Will Stubbs: 4:26

You’re also going to spend about 40 golf balls and lose them all exactly, and then spend time looking for your mate’s balls, for him to then walk off as soon as your ball goes into the roof and you’re like, oh, I see how it is. It’s actually insane, this sport yeah, yeah, it’s madness, it’s total madness but yeah, I think, I think it’s the the connection to be and I think the covid showed that like, well, it’s the connection and I think that COVID showed that.

Jim: 4:45

Well, it was the only place you could actually meet up with your pals, wasn’t it?

Will Stubbs: 4:48

Oh, 100%, 100% yeah.

Jim: 4:49

That’s why I started playing again.

Will Stubbs: 4:51

Yeah, yeah. So I suppose that’s my journey in sport. Fever-y sneakery.

Nish: 4:59

And frustration, frustration.

Will Stubbs: 5:01

And then just wanting to spend time with people.

Nish: 5:03

Yeah, here Will I. Frustration, frustration and then just want to spend time with people. Yeah, yeah, here, here will. I think there’s a lot of stuff you probably said there that I reckon at some point that’ll resonate with a lot of people and you know there might be little bits that’ll resonate, but as a as a whole story, I think that whole thing does, because he’s like actually I want to be.

Nish: 5:18

You know you’re out in nature, green like we love humans, love the color green. Anyway, it brings peace and things like that, and I mean that doesn’t happen on a golf course, to be honest. However, you need something to balance the anger, yeah, but yeah, I mean I should. I should also point out that where we are sat, we are sat within the the green, which we’ll get onto in a minute, but the actual green bit and I mean the backdrop pretty amazing, isn’t it, jim?

Nish: 5:44

yeah yeah, I mean I’m I’ll do it. Now I’m sort of pinching myself that we actually even sat here. Um, it’s a, it’s a fantastic facility. So you know, we’ve obviously journeyed over to the wrong side of the pennines to do this. So tell us county yeah, that’s what they say in lancashire as well. Uh, so tell us from my perspective, I’m going to bring that to me now it’s got to be about me. It’s my podcast so um I apologize why,

Nish: 6:14

uh, you’re taking up far too much time. Why, uh why, am I not translating this sim, striping it to what I’m doing on the course?

Will Stubbs: 6:24

see. So, like I’m saying, like, if you, if you’re going to go and allow people to go and play a sport, they’ll pick up and they’ll just go into the environment and just go and do it. The problem which we’ve got with golf is that we’ve created this sort of barriers to entry. Um, that you’ve got to do in a certain way, you’ve got to play in a certain way. If golf, if we could play golf in the same speed of which we can play, um, any of a sport, there would be no such thing, as you know, driving ranges and indoor golf centers and everything like that. They’ve come out because people have needed an opportunity to go and experience golf in a, in a space which is, you know, represented to them speed, you mean the time it takes the time it takes.

Will Stubbs: 7:00

Yeah so because of that, we created these environments, and the easiest way to actually build this artificial environment is to make it as standardized as possible.

Will Stubbs: 7:10

Just like what you see with playgrounds now. They’re all the same size, steps up in the same ladders and stuff, and with standardization becomes right what’s the cheapest way which we could do this, and with that you create flat environments. But you look at this just our backdrop. The golf is not flat and that’s the biggest problem. So as a human being, we’re used to being adaptable. You know, the reason why we’re so successful as a species is because we’re adaptable. But the problem which you’ve got is that you’ve got this golf clubs which are being fitted in a flat environment and you’re practicing in a flat environment and then you’re going out into a golf course and the golf course doesn’t represent the place which you spent your time. So you’re actually specializing yourself all the time which you spend hitting golf balls on a flat environment to do one thing and one thing only, and that’s be good in that environment. So if you want to be, good on a golf course that’s exceptionally good.

Will Stubbs: 8:06

Let’s get it right. And I think that the issue is that we look at golf pros and tour pros and we go they must practice somewhere. Yeah, but mate, they spend every single week on the golf course and they have practice rounds on the golf course. And do you know why they’re really good? It’s because they spend all their time on a golf course. You don’t, we don’t, we haven’t got the time to do that. We can’t commit you know 30 or 40 hours a week to be on a golf course.

Nish: 8:34

I know somebody could yeah maybe I know some of my clients, you know, just it’s calling me at a time when I can dedicate this kind of time to my golf and still be terrible. Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting. You said that about the. It’s the fact that you are learning in a controlled environment yeah, you know I’ve always hated the driving range generally. Anyway, I like too many memories of jarring the mat and hands hurting all that kind of thing.

Nish: 8:57

And you know, my, my, uh, oldest study is seven years old now and there’s near us there’s a par three academy course, so the holes are like 68, 80 yards, amazing on grass that we can get out there. And I’m always like let’s go out there to play because you’ll learn it, yeah, better. And it’s a really nice facility. Actually it’s called the andington golf center and, um, they are miniature holes, they’re crafted yeah, they’re really really nice and they love it because it’s like interaction with a bit of surf and it’s like going over that, you know.

Nish: 9:25

I mean, he’s obsessed with trying to play out of a bunker. He can’t do it, obviously, because he’s seven years old, but and he’s an agarwal because agarwal’s if we’re stuck in a bunker getting out but you know it’s. It’s just he’s loving that interaction with something other than just, and it’s different.

Will Stubbs: 9:41

Every single time it’s different, and I think how we’re trying to teach people to learn the game, especially at the moment, is right. What are you, club? What’s your? What’s your gap in? Let’s go and do a gap in with your wedges.

Nish: 9:51

Let’s do a gap in with your irons?

Will Stubbs: 9:54

hit me a number I mean but how many times have you had 150 in even a par three?

Will Stubbs: 9:59

there’s never 150, it’s never 140, it’s always 143 or 147 or something and the pins change, everything’s changing all the time, and it’s that variability that’s what makes us human yeah and I think that’s you know, if we move away from the idea that what we need to, you know, fit this numbers and we have to fit ourselves to specific things that you go out and, just like your son, the joy of it is to go and play.

Will Stubbs: 10:25

Yeah, if we can encourage people to go out and play and learn from the environment and learn from an environment well in our case where we can recreate a golf course indoors then you’ve got your golf course in this very small space. It costs less than building a whole golf course. Or you know, jason dave’s got, you know, his own two holes out of his back garden and Harrington, who’s got holes around his own house for people to have their own space or even have a space which they could share with their friends. You’ve got agency, you’ve got ownership over that, and I think the power of that is really quite powerful as well.

Nish: 11:00

I’m loving this Will’s hypnotised Will you really explained this great game of ours really well. You do. Thank you Fantastic.

Jim: 11:08

So, in terms of the whole concept of the company I mean, obviously you’ve talked about your experiences and how you got into golf and obviously the time pressures and constraints when did this concept evolve from? And actually putting a concept into reality?

Will Stubbs: 11:24

Yeah, so the concept actually started in the 90s. So Nick, our founder, he worked for a company and they did a project for the Millennium Dome and with that it was about utilising space frames to be able to create these spaces. And at that time he was thinking I love golf things, which I think and he thought about the idea of creating these stadium golfers, golf courses. So yeah, it’s TGL man.

Will Stubbs: 11:52

wow that is TGL the thing with it is that you know the space frames and stuff which they’re using. It was like hundreds of thousands of pounds but he won a millennium project award for that. But then he couldn’t obviously pursue it within golf because you know at that time golf is just about.

Jim: 12:09

You know it was before the times of tiger woods before the times were even tiger woods, yeah, yeah, I mean you got tom kite with the glasses like up here.

Will Stubbs: 12:17

You know I mean yeah, unbelievable skin, unbelievable skin.

Nish: 12:21

That guy, yeah, um, but funny, dirty sport, wasn’t? It, you know yeah old men in played sweaters 100.

Will Stubbs: 12:28

Yeah but from there then, um, he followed his pursuit and then he got into putters. He started making putters and then he had this idea that why are we training? We’ve got these things where we go and train with a different training aid and then we put with something different on the golf course and he went why can’t I combine a training aid and a putter? And that’s when he created the zen oracle, which is, you know, that blue putter which you see down there, right, okay, so you can actually train and then go and play an actual competitive game of golf.

Will Stubbs: 12:54

So you use the ball, the ball would go in that hole and you, you do lots of different training, training drills, to create a more smooth, more robust, more and more synced up slope, and that’s the Odyssey 3 ball.

Nish: 13:07

We don’t talk about it.

Will Stubbs: 13:09

But yeah, so that came out before it.

Nish: 13:10

Yeah, that’s what I mean.

Will Stubbs: 13:11

Yeah. So the Odyssey 2 ball was directly sort of like Wow, yeah, it’s wild, isn’t it? But from that then, and there’s this whole thing of like, if you make putters, maybe people understand that you know how to coach. He started working on tour and working with people like stenson and stuff like that, and then he was going out to you know major championships and working with them on the greens and go around the course and practicing and stuff, and then they’d come back to the studio over which we had before at roverham and it was just like literally astroturf on the floor.

Will Stubbs: 13:41

but that was what everyone did and it was just like what we’re doing over there and on the course is not matching what we’re doing here, and when we’re doing stuff here we make a breakthrough here. It’s not going on to there and it’s. It just couldn’t get his head around it. So he’s just like, well, we need to actually recreate some sort of golf course here. So basically him and my younger brother made a green stage out of wood and basic pieces of things which they could make, um, and it your side to side and it could go up and down, basically what you see with our sort of competitors now, and it was just very rudimentary. But with that then started the idea that you know, this is a space where we start recreating some experiences from the golf course.

Will Stubbs: 14:24

And I actually did my master’s thesis on that and I looked at putting. And I looked at because at the time everyone was like, how old? You know, Dave Pelz is the man with the square, square, square, like stroke and stuff like that. And I was like surely that doesn’t work for everyone, because I don’t put like that, but I’m a good putter. So I did some research and it was like right, how good can you? And what we found was that actually everyone’s got a totally different stroke on every different slope, but everyone’s super consistent at that slope on that stroke, that stroke on that slope. So you’ve got.

Will Stubbs: 14:58

It’s mind-blowing, though, you’ve got a different stroke for every slope which you go on and that’s exactly what we do is that we’re trying to encourage you to be a variable human being who can deal with this environment and then after that all the people who were his competitors on tour became his customers. So then they all started built like saying I, I need this, you know and 2016, phil kenyon was like I see this as the future.

Will Stubbs: 15:26

Can I have a green stage? Yep, of course you can. Um, so install one at Formby Hall. And then, 2017, sky Sports got in touch and went we, we’re doing something called the open zone. We think it might be quite good, but it’s going to be pretty boring if we’re just hitting shots off a mat. We’ve seen your thing, can you do it? So it works outdoors and we want to hit shots off it and we want to hit puts off it. And it was just like wow, this is, we’re going to have to get better yeah, we’re going to have to get become a proper, fully fledged company but,

Will Stubbs: 15:58

then they won the BAFTA. From that and then from there, you know, phil’s business just went through the roof and with that, tour players all started buying them because he was recommending them, so he was coaching and then he’d go to their places and coach and then from there, then you know it crescendos through. It’s quite. You know, golf’s a quite pyramid style thing, so it’s like the best, and then everyone else gets it after that. So, yeah, so we’ve been. It’s been a bit a wild journey, but I mean where we’re at now. It still comes back to the point of it’s. It was a product which was built by a coach for coaches, and now it’s where we’re going. Now it’s trying to be a product which is something which is owned by everyone, but so they can play the game in their own way wow, that’s amazing.

Nish: 16:43

What a story that is.

Will Stubbs: 16:44

Yes, we’ve got a deep. Why behind? Why we do?

Will Stubbs: 16:47

this yeah, absolutely yeah and I think there’s a lot of um, there’s a lot of companies now which are emerging and doing stuff, but I think they’re just I don’t believe that they actually understand why they’re doing it like yeah we’ve got a theoretical underpinning for how people learn, like motor control and everything like and the head person behind that is actually a professor at sheffield hallam who I studied under but how we understand human human learning and stuff and motor control is grounded in everything which we design with our product, then your background yeah, you know about sports, science is my background, yeah, so you’ve got a really good deep understanding of it and now you’re translating that into products yeah products that matches your passion.

Nish: 17:32

That’s it. Self-actualization is where we’re at. Is that what you’re saying?

Will Stubbs: 17:36

that’s exactly where it’s at. Yeah, you know, and it’s about trying to take away some of the barriers so people can be declumsified, if that makes sense you know, because that’s what golf is.

Will Stubbs: 17:46

You know, if we’re looking at golf, people would say, like, what we’re trying to do is trying to bring golf back to the savvy, savvy days, you know, and when people just he played, he went onto the beach with a four iron span, his four iron round in the thing, create a hole, disappeared off that way and then just hit balls towards it and did whatever he want. You know, um, and that’s where we want to bring it back, just like what you said.

Jim: 18:08

You just want to go in bunk and find a way out.

Nish: 18:11

Yeah, but what we need to do is find a way where we can scaffold and support someone so we don’t tell me how to get out of those, because if you can do it, I can.

Will Stubbs: 18:20

Certainly I can learn, yeah but I mean give us, give him we. We want to take the ownership, because as soon as you take learning away from someone, so we, like everyone, learns in school. Yeah, it’s victoria, it’s still victorian, it’s still what we class. As you know, there’s someone at the front with all the knowledge, and for you to understand what they have to you, you have to go through their knowledge. But actually you know how many times we see people do something and we go. There’s no way I could have ever done that, but, or maybe because I’m older, I should know how to do that and that’s not the way, which actually discover it yourself.

Will Stubbs: 18:51

Wisdom doesn’t come with age no, of course not man, and I think if we can exhibit a and b, but I think if we can find a way where we can get that get out the way of people learning the game, but also find a way where we can get that get out the way of people learning the game, but also find a way where we can support them yeah, I mean I think we.

Nish: 19:08

There’s a couple of things we’ve discussed over the the course of the podcast. Actually, most recently, I remember we spoke to ellis ellis courtnell, you know, 15 year old guy.

Nish: 19:18

He’s cheshire under 16 champion and he’s, like you know, made it at the moment. He’s looking at him in his dream, that kind of thing, and it was interesting chatting to him because there was very much uh, it was a lot of. It was numbers driven. Yeah, you know, he had this big white board. I learned numbers on there. He was using a gc quad for a gc quad sorry, that’s giving him his numbers. He’s looking at his spin rates and things like that. He’s looking at the distance it’s going. He’s inputting all this stuff into some I think it’s called up games or something like that yeah, yeah, up game and it’s numbers driven, and I also remember going back a few more episodes.

Nish: 19:52

We’re talking about bryson and I.

Will Stubbs: 19:54

I love the guy now because I think he’s doing so much good stuff for golf and awareness and social media his decision to go onto youtube and actually allow people to understand who he is was such a good it’s changed, it’s been, it’s probably transformed his personality. I honestly think if it wasn’t for him doing what he’s doing, I don’t think Liv would be at the point where it is now with the discussions.

Nish: 20:14

He’s the fact there isn’t he. Mate when he turned up and he won the US Open and people are screaming for him to win it rather than screaming for Rory to win it that, rather than screaming for a Rory tour, innit, yeah, yeah, that doesn’t happen much, man, that doesn’t happen much. But it was interesting with Bryson. Me and Chris both felt the same. We didn’t like Bryson because it was like he was trying to break golf.

Will Stubbs: 20:32

Yeah, cracking it, turn it into some sort of deterministic model you know, world’s strongest man type thing.

Nish: 20:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah as far as possible a day and you takes a shot off your swing yeah, I’m like I’m a sophisticated golf robot, that kind of thing you know, but actually, like I get it, everyone’s looking for a way just to hit the ball consistently, and no way you can hit it and I I get. I understand all of that man. That’s the art of golf, though isn’t this, it’s a science. Yeah, yeah, and I suppose it’s that, isn’t it? That’s what we would. We were grappling with I mean, chris were grappling with the. There is that scientific element. We can’t get away from that. We’re in that era. But actually there is also the artistry of golf. There’s the magic of golf.

Nish: 21:13

Listen to European Ryder Cup team Every two years. They still keep bringing out Seve Ballesteros, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s probably going to happen for the next 50 years because he was an artist and people relate like, yeah, actually they can’t relate to. That’s the problem. It’s like he had something I can’t go and learn that touch?

Nish: 21:31

yeah, like he just had that in him and that was from being on the beach and whatever, of course it was I think the beautiful thing where we’re at now with golf, is that we’ve gone through this big cycle.

Will Stubbs: 21:41

You know the 10 000 hours that came and hopefully that’s gone. You know, because that was just murdering people and we’ve come to this full circle. We’re actually now probably moving back to the point of a you know, hopefully a savvy coming through where people actually turn up.

Will Stubbs: 21:55

And you know, if you look at schaeffler, like the best thing which he’s got is that he swings at his own swing and finds his own way to do it. And the same thing with John Varm he’s got a club foot and he takes it back half way. You know oh, wow but it’s about finding a way to get the ball the right distance.

Will Stubbs: 22:12

You know, and that’s what you look at, scotty, and he’s so good, but he uses numbers in that way he hits a shot and he guesses the number rather than you know, and you see him there, you stick his trackman down on the range and they hit a shot and he’d go well, 217 and he’s a yard or two out and there’s a way which you can use data and there’s a way you can’t.

Will Stubbs: 22:32

You can, where you should use data isn’t. Well, don’t use data is go right. I’m gonna get my clubs and I’m gonna hit my club for whatever distance it is, regardless of what environment I’m in. You know, and if you look at bryson, it’s like humidity and everything and the wind and it’s going to take this off and yeah, but, and it’s going to come out, this lie, but.

Will Stubbs: 22:50

But he’s trying to make a deterministic thing to make and it but he’s doing it in his own way, but he’s doing it from. He’s still taking environmental data and it’s adjusting it based on where it is. And you listen to him and even when you listen, watch phil on phil, there’s that famous clip.

Nish: 23:06

Yeah, yeah, mate, if you watch, do you watch that? Yeah?

Will Stubbs: 23:09

have you seen the? Or you go full, dustin johnson, you go. One thing you got to do when you’re hitting the fade gotta make sure you hit the fade you can use that in whatever way you want to use it, can’t you? It’s just using it in a way which doesn’t constrain you. It should give you more opportunities. That’s what.

Nish: 23:28

I think I’m after your opinion, I suppose, on this. Now Do you feel like we’re getting to the point where we’re being conditioned? Numbers are your friend, that’s it, because you look at me, I’ve got one on my Garmin distance watch and all that kind of thing If I don’t have it or the battery runs out, I feel lost on the golf course. I don’t know how far it is to the green. I learn by just going. Where’s the 150 marker?

Will Stubbs: 23:54

oh wow, mate what does that look like to you? Is that another?

Nish: 23:56

30, 40 yards back falls. You know, and it was all guesswork yeah, yeah and and a little bit of feel and fluke and and whatever. Yeah, I suppose that’s that is going. I mean game, isn’t it yeah?

Will Stubbs: 24:08

it’s one of those, isn’t it? I think that by having numbers we can accelerate learning, because it’s an objective measure of where we see ourselves and it’s then so there’s. There’s this reality versus, you know, perception, but you’ve got to mix it with the qualitative data. You’ve got to understand that I’m the human being here, like there’s times when I’ve hit shots and I’ve, you know, I’ve come in and been even in the sim. You know, I’m playing around a golf indoors and I’ve gone, well, hit a nine, I’m what, like one, uh, one, five, five, and I’ll hit it 140, and I’ll just go to be fair. I’ve had about three hours kip because I had a son nine weeks ago, you know, and I’ve got bum holes for eyes, you know. So there’s uh, so it’s, but it’s understanding yourself, isn’t it? And you know it’s a goal. Golf’s a great leveler, isn’t it?

Jim: 24:59

oh, absolutely, it is um, but obviously we talked the way you know, talked about the way that golf has changed over the last 20 years in terms of, you know, the way people practice using the science um of sport as well. Um, how does that really reflect in zen and what you’re doing?

Will Stubbs: 25:19

I think the key thing is it’s got to be it’s got to be representative information. Everything which we do is about recreating a representative experience. It’s got to experience the same as the golf course. It’s like people say like if we’re looking at training, a perfect example is a balance bike versus stabilizers. So there’s actually a recent study done by, actually my professor on this which is quite interesting. So they’ve got a group of kids put them on balance bikes. They’ve got a group of kids put them on bikes with stabilizers. The old traditional method. You know make it safe, make it stable, take out the variability, take out the chaos.

Will Stubbs: 25:56

It’s like a risk 100% of the kids went on to ride the bike who were on balanced bikes, who came from balanced bikes and the ones who were on stabilisers. 75% of them learnt to ride a bike. So 25% of kids who had the more stable, more structured route into learning to ride a bike failed 25%. That’s a big failure, isn’t it? I?

Nish: 26:16

mean I’m invested in this story because Aaron will not get on his bike. No, he needs to stabilize. I’ve got a bar. I have to run behind him on a bike. It’s just a nightmare. But you won’t do it with the younger one. We’ve got him on a balanced bike.

Will Stubbs: 26:33

There you go perfect example, yeah, and I think straw boulder too, obviously there you go. Yeah, but if we’re talkingower too, obviously there you go. But if we’re talking about golf training, we need to move away from getting too focused in on the numbers and more focused in on the environment, and if we can have an environment which recreates a golf course, we’re taking away the gap between the chasm. It is a chasm between the driving range and the golf course, because the biggest problem is you go and hit your drive and then you know first hole, the beach shift is like this uphill, and you know you might hit, you can be 150 yards away, but you’re going to be hitting a seven iron rather than a pitching wedge.

Will Stubbs: 27:10

You know, and that’s the artistry of golf and that’s where we need to help people. We need to give them an opportunity to learn the variability of the game. And if we actually take the green sage or the swing sage as an example, we’re the balanced bike for golf. We’re taking you away from a structured environment where people would say simplify it. You know, make it structured, make it easier and then make it harder. No, make it harder straight away. We’re human beings, you know. I mean, if you push me, you push me. I’m gonna get back up, I’m gonna be. I’m gonna be bopping around. You know, if I start falling down the hill, I’m gonna be running down the hill, you know.

Nish: 27:47

Yeah, I think things are hard yeah yeah it’s not as we’re finding out. Yeah, um, I mean, can, can anyone? We’re in a magnificent facility, by the way the first words that came out of my mouth was wow, it is amazing and it’s, you know, the backdrop created you mentioned. It’s this backdrop that we’ve got behind us If anybody’s on the audio version. If you go on the video version you’ll see it’s the yeah, go see us on YouTube.

Will Stubbs: 28:11

Yeah, you have to go on YouTube to see this.

Nish: 28:14

Yeah youtubecom slash top golf people there’ll be a load of numbers and letters on it. This is actually a golf hole, isn’t it?

Will Stubbs: 28:25

yeah, yeah. So this is our local golf club. This is Aberdel. This is where me and my brother grew up playing golf so even that, like you’re in an actual place we’re positioned as the green looking back to the fairway and couldn’t.

Nish: 28:39

Can anybody come in? Yeah?

Will Stubbs: 28:41

yeah, yeah, you can come rent the space out. You can come for lessons. Couldn’t engage with us. Get in touch with us if you want to come and experience this and understand what we’re about you know. For us, it’s about getting you know we’re. We look at golf like, say, it’s bought by top golfers, top academies, top pros, top coaches and now more coaches are getting involved. But what we want is to build it up from the community up as well, because our vision is more people playing better for longer. We’re not going to do that by just going through small amounts of people. We want to make this accessible. We want to.

Nish: 29:14

It’s that classic thing with golf, isn’t it? Everything ends up being elitist somehow yes, either it’s a golf course that you can’t it’s a gateway, it’s ultimately all technology.

Will Stubbs: 29:23

Just like you, you know, buying a computer years ago would be, or even having a phone is the only people who had a mobile phone years ago with a? You know the stock market guys, you know I mean, but those are the. That’s the classic, that’s the classic sort of pyramid which we all live in. Um, and I think where we’re trying to move to now is like how can we make this more accessible, how can we give more people ownership, how can we bring it into the game? And that’s what we’re working with the rna and england golf with is that we’re actually trying to find ways in which we can put more of these into golf clubs, into driving, driving ranges, into commercial spaces, and we’re working with them on this initiative which we call the First Touch.

Jim: 30:06

What’s your first?

Will Stubbs: 30:07

experience when you come and hit a putt, because anyone can putt, you know, and that’s the beauty of it. We did a golf show a few years back 2018, I think it was like the British Golf Show and we did this challenge like loads of different famous putts which we recreated. The person who won it we had professional golfers on there, people who’d been playing for 30 years. He was a kid with his Spurs shirt on Just went bam, started smashing balls in and he was just like that.

Nish: 30:28

It’s the only thing he’s going to win.

Will Stubbs: 30:33

Oh, my days.

Nish: 30:34

I had to get that in as soon as he said Spurs, oh, mate, don’t you love, though, ange.

Will Stubbs: 30:39

Ange, what a guy. He started off. He’s just so like I’m doing my thing, and now he’s just like I’m not doing my thing, and you hate me, and you hate me but yeah, I love his.

Nish: 30:49

Whenever they ask him a question he’s like, yeah mate, yeah mate, it’s hilarious.

Will Stubbs: 30:55

yeah, sorry, it’s hilarious, sorry couldn’t resist that. Spurs fans I’m sorry, yeah, but looking where we’ve come in the last 20 years, golf and technology has enhanced our experience. It’s enhanced our ability to understand ourselves with this game. It’s created more opportunity. You’ve seen like Five Iron Golf. You’ve seen Pitch and all these other places. Topgolf, Topgolf are doing games with sonic. How cool is that? I mean they’re bringing kids into the game of golf through sonic I mean me.

Will Stubbs: 31:24

I grew up playing sonic on sega. Yeah, I’ve no idea what the whole point of that game is. You pop from you just like hold c and just go mental. Yeah you know, no one really knows what you’re doing and there’s a lot of transferable things which we can take from those markets and bring and skill sets which we can bring into this to make it more exciting, more fun, more engaging you need that, the, the, or you’d call it the bottom end of the funnel.

Nish: 31:46

I suppose you call it. You need that fresh impetus coming into the game. Yeah, where you know they do take out the bloody snooker tables.

Will Stubbs: 31:56

Man take out the snooker tables put in like honestly, take out a snooker table, put in a green stage, put sky sports on there, watch rory hit. Oh, he’s got like a four foot left. That left right downhill quickly. Let’s recreate it, let’s recreate it, let’s let people are going to be sitting in your clubhouse. They’re going to be having food, they’re going to be having a pint.

Nish: 32:15

They’re going to be specializing, doing what we do as human beings, what we should be doing so you said you said you’re linking up with the like the rna to do that, england golf to do that. Is that like, actually let’s try and get clubs a bit more active in getting this technology and we’re working with finance companies to make it as frictionless as possible, what we’ve even thought about.

Will Stubbs: 32:34

Let’s go out to venture, venture capitalist, and let’s go and get, sell, like give it away most of the company, but with that then just go and fund, put in places like this everywhere, just everywhere just not a lot of space, it’s not man really, I mean a lot.

Nish: 32:51

It’s like 17 feet by 10 feet, and a lot of clubs have got some kind of sim room somewhere, yeah, so it’s not a huge stretch for them to go. Actually, let’s just go a little bit further. Yeah, give something that’s a bit more tailored custom and it’s going to do the golfers a lot of good as well. That’s it.

Will Stubbs: 33:09

And there won’t be long before we can have the scans of all those greens of your own golf course and then you can go and recreate your own thing of your own golf course and then you can go and recreate your own thing, recreate the club, the championship, with the club, championship winning, put, and that’s where that’s. That’s that’s what our class is enriching it. That’s enriching that whole experience, because otherwise you know what you’d be doing. You’d finish your round and you’d go right behind those trees there’s a field. I’m gonna have to go and stand on that field and smash some golf balls and try and figure this out. Or I’m going to go and get someone to try and tell me that you need to take the club there instead of there, or here instead of there, which hopefully transfers to me not hating my life next time I go around that golf course.

Nish: 33:49

And, if we can, you got into my head there Will.

Will Stubbs: 33:54

There is a bunker up there. If you do want to get committed, I am terrible at bunkers, but anyway.

Jim: 34:00

Can you just talk to us a little bit about the actual technology that you use?

Nish: 34:09

I’m quite interested in. Obviously we’re used to TGL now and everyone’s heard about it. It’s a very famous green.

Will Stubbs: 34:13

now yeah.

Nish: 34:13

Don’t change whatever I mean. Obviously I’ve done my research on no kind of what’s going on, but was it? Is it like hydraulic motors underneath?

Will Stubbs: 34:22

so yeah, so we’ve got yes, we’ve got linear actuators which we use to be able to, which we’ve designed ourselves, which allow us to be able to move the green up, down, left, right, and we’re not sat on it right now.

Will Stubbs: 34:35

If I press a button up there, we will move if I want us to move with. But yeah, and make it. So we’ve, um, we’ve been really smart with how we’ve designed, um, how the whole thing fits together. So if you were gonna make something go up in a straight line, this line here gets longer, so it’s called the hypotenuse issue, so we have to be able to make a mathematician. It’s called the hypotenuse issue, so we have to be able to make. I’m a mathematician.

Nish: 34:58

No, but that’s like. You know, kids going, oh, maths isn’t useful. Well, it is there you go. Mate, If you want to get better at golf, you’ve got to know it.

Jim: 35:04

If, you’ve got to make some crazy products.

Will Stubbs: 35:07

So, we’ve had to solve that problem, that you’ve got to make something get longer. But it will also stay in, especially when you start twisting this thing.

Will Stubbs: 35:16

And we have to twist it because we need to be able to recreate the golf course. There’s times when it’s and this is the beauty of it you could have a I could make it flat here, and then it could make it with a twist over on this side, and then that’s going to mess up your perception. Or I can have it flat there and twist at your feet, and just being standing on a slope there boggles your mind because you’re looking at something which is flat and yeah um, and then again there’s all the software which goes behind that to try and make it as engaging, as an easy and accessible as possible.

Will Stubbs: 35:47

And we’ve had kids you know the age of four playing around with this.

Nish: 35:50

You know, and I mean obviously this, this is uh, and you will have got loads of coaches who’ve yeah because it’s for them. This is just like manna from heaven I can coach well, yeah, realistic yeah clearly, then that would mean that you’ve got the absolute upper echelons players of golf and that’s it they’ve obviously got these as well yeah you know they’ve set up, but so you’ve. You’ll’ve obviously rubbed shoulders with some big figures in golf.

Will Stubbs: 36:19

Yeah, yeah.

Nish: 36:20

Has there ever been a moment you don’t have to name a name if you don’t want to, but has there ever been a moment where you’ve gone? I absolutely cannot freaking believe I’m stood next to this person talking about getting a. I’ve been starstruck, basically.

Will Stubbs: 36:34

To be fair, the most I’ve ever been starstruck was I accidentally held the door open for the gate open for Tiger Woods once onto the practice putting grid. Yeah, that’s it for me.

Nish: 36:44

Yeah, I was like I don’t need to do anything else.

Will Stubbs: 36:46

You know, when you sort of go to a fence and you sort of open it out to leave, and then he walked past you and was like thanks buddy and.

Will Stubbs: 36:53

He spoke to me I was like, oh, all right, okay, he still has that effect on, like he’s such a colossal figure in this game, but the thing which you see is that you’re like there’s a lot of golfers out there, and when you see them on TV and that’s the same thing when you’re talking about Bryson when you actually meet them, you just go. He’s just a human being. Bob McIntyre oh my God, what a brilliant human being.

Nish: 37:16

Looks like a really fun guy, doesn’t he? Brilliant.

Will Stubbs: 37:18

Like we actually me and my brother actually went and installed his green stage a few years ago Great Up on the west coast of Scotland in a little thing behind his mum and dad’s house mate behind his mum and dad’s house on the golf course which he grew up on, and he’s just his mum and dad, just his mum and dad unbelievable.

Will Stubbs: 37:39

His dad dug a green keeper there and we actually went and went and played some holes and stuff with him, played, played around a golf rim and it’s just. He’s the most down-to-earth human being, but he is, and they are all, just human beings at the end of the day. They’ve just got this ability to go from where they went from good to great and then great to ridiculous and I suppose we were talking about this before we started and you know, our game of golf is you.

Nish: 38:02

Most people started very young. Yeah, you get this early grounding, don’t you? Around golf clubs and etiquette and you’re talking to adults all the time and I suppose you are being subconsciously, you’re being brought up in an environment where you’re supposed to be a nice person yeah, for sure.

Will Stubbs: 38:19

I mean you compare it to. You know football and you know that’s probably why I fell out of love with football, because most of the time someone’s screaming at the sideline and and that’s sort of like what, sometimes probably what some elements of golf coaches and is is like I mean time has to do.

Nish: 38:32

It was pretty heavyweight with phil mickelson at times, I think.

Jim: 38:35

But you used to call him Hefty.

Will Stubbs: 38:37

Yeah yeah, he’s got a lefty, yeah, Like oh God.

Nish: 38:39

But man Heckling mum Like mum shut up, Just leave it, but I do.

Will Stubbs: 38:43

I think there’s a. We were talking about rugby, rugby’s another great one. Like people go and smash each other for 80 minutes. Yeah, sorry about that, mate. Yeah, how did you have that? Yeah, that’s it. Finger up the bum when the line up.

Nish: 39:02

Someone actually got done for that once, didn’t they? Yeah, australian Rugby League, I think it was yeah. Wild, but yeah, Great sport though. Yeah, to be fair. Just off the back of England beating France, and we were there.

Will Stubbs: 39:12

What a game that was, were you? No, yeah, no way Unbelievable. My mate was down there. It was actually a good atmosphere. It was good fun.

Nish: 39:17

There were some French people behind us, we were having a good. Yeah, that’s another thing, though that’s another thing, think about it.

Will Stubbs: 39:24

You’re sat there with a load of French people sat behind you. Do that in football’s case. Can’t do that, it’s just going to be a ruck, but why?

Jim: 39:40

Why boring? You’re all boring in terms of the. You know, when you, when you you have a customer and they come to you and say, right, this is what we want. Um, obviously there’s. There’s a slight bespoke element to it, but obviously the technology is going to be relatively consistent. I mean, what, what would the average um fit out, look like?

Will Stubbs: 39:52

and it depends so like I said, like our three sort of distinct customers, as potentially, you know, realistically it’s like sort of distinct customers.

Will Stubbs: 40:00

Potentially, you know, realistically it’s like it’s coaches, it’s, you know, country clubs, I’d say golf clubs, but realistically it’s country clubs and then it’s private individuals. So each one of them will have a slightly different spec based on what they want. Some country clubs or like indoor special sort of venues, will have something like proper crazy where they’ll have like a green stage and then a swing stage in front of it so they’re not impeding on one or the other. Some of them, for, say, like a, you know, a private member, will have a private individual have their golf room, like this, and they’ll have it set up so they can play a full round of golf indoors, so they’ll have a strike area embedded into the turf and then they’ll still have their put into so they can go and hit into the sim, then move the ball and then hit some puts and then practice. But yeah, there’s some, there’s been some wild ones and there’s been some really wild ones, and then there’s been some straightforward, pretty boring ones but I mean we.

Nish: 40:51

What do we want to know about?

Will Stubbs: 40:52

clearly, the wildest probably the most, um, probably the most insane one, which is yet to be completed because half of it’s underwater or still being built, is on Sindala Island. Where’s that In?

Nish: 41:07

Saudi Arabia Right. So those words straight away say to me money’s no object.

Will Stubbs: 41:13

Yeah, exactly so they’ve got some of our biggest. Can you make us gold-plated? Basically yeah, so they’ve got sim this side, they’ve got doors that side and sim, that’s not a golf course. The moon, yeah, yeah exactly and they so they pull doors up and hit off that way, and then they play this way and then they’ve got all the technology. It’s ridiculous like, but they’ve got six of them, not just one of them.

Nish: 41:39

So so what we’re saying here is bigger picture. Live golf really has taken golf to the masses in saudi arabia I mean, that’s just bonkers, it is wild.

Will Stubbs: 41:52

It is wild but at the same time is, you know there’s look at um, you know there’s some like private individuals who’ve just gone fully, all out. They’ve gone right. I’m I’m having 3d system in here. I I’m having the green stage, I’m having it full swing, I’m having it. I’m having force plates putting in here. I’m having camera systems, I’m having augmented reality.

Nish: 42:12

I’m like what do?

Will Stubbs: 42:13

you play off mate, I play off eight.

Nish: 42:14

Build a golf course, around the back of your house.

Will Stubbs: 42:16

Yeah well, yeah well, exactly, To be fair, actually we had a meeting with someone a few weeks back and he he was looking at building his own outdoor green and it was going to cost him 80 grand. And he says, well, I’ve got, I could make a sit, I could put a sim and a green stage and have a full golf course, any golf course in the world, essentially indoors in my barn, for less price than building an outdoor synthetic, green and only really want to use it.

Will Stubbs: 42:43

The problem as well with that outdoor synthetic green is that you know after a while you’ve learned all the puts. Yeah, absolutely, you’re bored, aren’t you? Press randomizer on that and you’ve got a new green every single time yeah, I mean, that’s the beauty golf, isn’t it?

Nish: 42:55

it’s the visual bit of the golf I mean, we’re getting it now because we we play signature holes at the golf clubs and things like that, and you’ll stand on a tee and you’ll go. Well, that is a feast for the eyes. Yeah, yeah, we were talking off camera and chris would be gutted that he isn’t here, but sillith, sillith, what a course we go.

Will Stubbs: 43:15

We we’ve been going back every year yeah because it’s, it’s, literally, it’s, it’s just it’s such a hidden gem.

Will Stubbs: 43:23

It’s a hidden gem. It’s beautiful. Every single time you go there it could be 40 miles an hour wind, we were saying. First time we played there it was 40 miles an hour and the first, like nine, are all into the teeth. And then the back nine. It’s pretty easy, apart from one par five which is like the hardest hole in the world when it’s into the wind, and the ninth there’s a par three. It’s like 110 yards. First time I played it I hit seven iron. Second day we came back after a few berries and a dodge of the shrimp factory. Um and if you’ve been there you know exactly what I’m on about the smell of the brown shrimp.

Nish: 43:58

Wow, when the wind changes, you don’t want the smell of brown shrimp in the morning yeah, yeah.

Will Stubbs: 44:02

And then you hit a sandwich the next day. But that’s the beauty of golf, isn’t it? You stand there going you can’t look by numbers exactly and you, you don’t get that honestly, you can’t.

Nish: 44:11

We’re being christened trying to figure out what we’re going to do in this winter period. We’re lucky we can still play winter golf, but we don’t want to play the good courses in the winter. Don’t play off mats and things like that to.

Will Stubbs: 44:21

To be fair, you could play Moortown. We’ve played Moortown. Oh mate, that’s a great course as well. Full greens, full teams, full greens all year round. Played there with Lee Sharp, actually, you know, x United.

Nish: 44:32

Oh, yeah, yeah, what a nice guy he is. By the way, I went to Sportsman’s Dinner and he was the great stories. Yeah, he’s from that era, wasn’t he? Yeah, just crossing over to professional fully.

Will Stubbs: 44:44

He said it was when he first turned up for man United. He said he was a boy amongst men. But he was a boy at the time, but really he was like going up with some of them Some heavy drinkers at the club then, weren’t they?

Nish: 44:54

Oh yeah, but also, we sort of mentioned it quite a few times. But what are your thoughts of TGL?

Will Stubbs: 45:05

Have you watched any of it? I have. I have. You know what. The first thing which I watched was good, good. Going there, I thought the guys. Actually there’s elements of it which I just think are brilliant. So the shot clock.

Will Stubbs: 45:13

I’d rather mic up and put cameras on a local golf club and bet on golfers you know the average joe golfer and have actual bets going on. How good would that be? Oh, here’s Steve 17 handicapper. He’s in a rich vein of form. He’s hit within his handicap averages the last three rounds, he’s never 17. Yeah, and if he NRs, you get your money back, or something like that. Oh, it’s a walk-off. It’s a walk-off. Steve’s walked, he’s walked off.

Nish: 45:44

Give him his return on bet. Brits will be all over that.

Will Stubbs: 45:49

But yeah, going back to TGI, we would love it, or you could take it to Macau.

Nish: 45:56

Oh my god, he’s striped it. How’s he done that?

Will Stubbs: 46:00

We’ve all got that one shot in us, yeah, with the guy with the big beer belly and stuff like that. But jumping back to TGL, I think the idea where they’ve got it, I think is brilliant. I’d love to see like for me we could do TGL in this rectangle here.

Jim: 46:17

Yeah.

Will Stubbs: 46:22

And I understand that they’ve got to do it as like it’s a full arena sport, because I think that it needs that gravitas, and I think what they’ve done with the green is brilliant. You know, they’ve used, uh, you know, a twisting thing and they’ve done it in the right way. In a sense, instead of going right, what we’re going to do is we’re going to do you know, five famous golf courses and we’re going to recreate them visually, virtually, and we’re going to try and make the environment fit that, and actually you know why don’t we recreate something which isn’t?

Nish: 46:46

just whole world. We’ve imagined these golf holes, yeah, and that’s what I was talking about before.

Will Stubbs: 46:50

Let’s take the, the, the inspiration from the video games, and bring it into this, because actually we can actually create some versus you know, some, you know trans, transcendence of skills from a different domain into ours, which actually might help it make more fun, more engagement. So I think that element now is brilliant. I think they still got some work to do in terms of the launch monitor stuff yeah, that’s not.

Nish: 47:11

They’ve worked. Have they properly? Yeah, have they got? Because I know they play off real turf, don’t they?

Will Stubbs: 47:17

yeah, and do those, they don’t move they don’t move, they just, they’re just, they’re just flat. So I feel like, so that’s like they’ve not gone the whole, yeah so I feel like they should have just given us a phone call on that one?

Nish: 47:27

yeah, there’s a chap who held the door open not too late. Yeah, you might need to get back in touch with him to change how TGL yeah but the one thing which they have got which is quite cool.

Will Stubbs: 47:42

I’ve seen that. Yeah, but the pitching so I can remember seeing, is it Bubby? He had like two pitches and he had to go from a closer pitching area, where you’re pitching, to the screen and he pitched it and he went like 40 yards off back at green and just like he’s like that. I can’t turn around and be like this is rubbish.

Nish: 48:02

There was a fascinating moment that just came out this week from TGL, so I follow their Instagram feed. I’ve not watched anything, it was just the timings and stuff like that. I just never got around. I got too busy on the podcast.

Will Stubbs: 48:14

I’m a businessman. That’s what I’m saying.

Nish: 48:17

I really wish I was. There’s a really interesting bit that came out, and it was Rory.

Will Stubbs: 48:25

Who’s on Rory’s team now? I remember he was on with one of his teammates.

Nish: 48:27

Yeah, the boss I guess teams doesn’t really make sense, does it sometimes. But was it maybe it was with colin marikawa and he was talking to said about the golf ball. He said oh, this is the retail version. He said something like dimples being different and colin Morikawa was just like this whole thing is kicked off now where it was like we knew the golf ball we were getting wasn’t the one that they’re probably just gonna end up with our golf ball. You know when they say or would we’re pulling the golf?

Will Stubbs: 48:59

ball back now they’re gonna be using as well. Yeah, exactly, it’s like Rory, the amount of driver faces he’s smashed Because his driver face is thinner, right okay, because it gives a bigger trampoline effect. Wow, he ain’t buying his driver, but then again, I’d rather have a driver which works than one which I can do and. I’ve got a tow van around the corner.

Nish: 49:16

Yeah, exactly. The amount you can drive costs yeah, exactly.

Will Stubbs: 49:20

But looking back at in terms of bringing a virtual environment into a sporting environment and competitive environment, one of the things which the good guy said is this this doesn’t feel like golf, but it feels like a different sport and that’s what I quite liked about it. I like that. Yes, we’re trying to recreate golf here, but it’s a golf-like game and I think with it being a golf-like game, is it? The accessibility becomes so much different. It becomes you move away from the dogma of going that’s golf and tuck your shirt in play with your dad.

Will Stubbs: 49:53

you can’t come you can’t play unless you’re 18 years old.

Will Stubbs: 49:57

You can’t play golf on your own and you can’t put a card in without someone watching you you know, and I think, that golf-like game is a brilliant element, and I think you know the technology which they put into the green and the rotating green. It shows that actually we need to move away from that element of just that. They could have easily, you know, five years ago, they might have just stuck a fixed green in there and gone right, oh yeah, play from here. Yeah, this isn’t really the same thing and I think embracing that technology and actually saying to the world like we need variability and everything which we should be doing should be variable, but it’s like, where’s the scaled down version of that?

Nish: 50:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Will Stubbs: 50:37

Like how can that be accessible? You’d have to have like 40 Sims all playing to like five or six or seven different greens which are all rotating and changing. You know, they see it’s. It’s pretty intense the amount of infrastructure which you’d need to be able to create that. You know a smaller version of that, you know. Or you just have one of our rectangles and a simulator and you can play golf indoors um to win it with trackman and you’re off, you go, aren’t?

Will Stubbs: 51:05

you yeah, yeah so I feel like there’s an amazing thing that’s brought eyeballs to technology in golf, you know, and their series a funding was like half a billion. So someone wants to do some series. A funding for half a billion for for zen I think we something.

Nish: 51:22

All the links in the description.

Will Stubbs: 51:27

You know, you can make this game far more accessible than what.

Nish: 51:30

What you’re saying is you’re open to working with somebody if they want to invest half a trillion pounds.

Will Stubbs: 51:33

Yeah, I’m open If someone wants to say well, let’s take your vision of more people playing golf in a better way for longer, in a better way, so that they can become better golfers and better people through this sport. And we buy into your vision, we buy into who you stand for as a person and what the culture of our business is. We have to sell to the rich, expensive people because they can buy it and they fund us and they fund us to be able for me to turn up every day, for me to be able to feed my children.

Will Stubbs: 52:04

But you know, ultimately know that it’s exactly one of our like. So we’ve got like principles, we’ve got for coaches, for the, for the elite, and they’re a benchmark. And we say that elite for benchmark, that we have to be not only we are the safest thing on here where, with the safest system, with the most reliable system, with the most robust system with the most versatile system, you know, because we have to meet the high demand because I think some of the exacting standards which they ask, you know if it’s, if the ball, if you ask it to get that, bob Mac, perfect example.

Will Stubbs: 52:35

So everyone does aim point, don’t they?

Will Stubbs: 52:36

yeah so, bob Mac, he rang me up of a week. He went, well, I’m on my green stage and my my digital levels not saying it’s the right gradient. I went, all right, well, let’s have a look at the numbers. And I went well, let me show you. And I’m thinking it goes yeah, it’s 2.2 and it should be 2%. It’s saying you’re telling me it’s 2% and it’s like, oh well, let’s have a look at numbers and I go, all right, just turn your digital level around and it it says 1.8, now Will. And I go well, your digital level is bust, bob, and yeah, I’m looking at your numbers and you bang on 2%.

Nish: 53:10

I don’t wish to brag, but my technology is bulletproof.

Will Stubbs: 53:13

So actually what he does now is that he calibrates his digital levels, which he then takes around the world to go and practice on golf courses on our green stage.

Nish: 53:26

That’s amazing um, yeah well, I mean, we walked in and the the feeling he got straight away was just, you know, it’s like his warm is welcoming. But then also, as soon as we started talking that kind of thread of as corny as this sounds a thread of golf and I wanted to do it for golf- yeah, it’s definitely runs through. It’s how golden craig is craig’s off, off camera and he’s he’s just making sure everything’s running running smoothly on the he’s just stealing all the content.

Will Stubbs: 53:54

It’s all going on, no, but it.

Nish: 53:58

It was lovely sort of walking in and and seeing it. Like I said, my first impression, wow, and I was like first question up at the stage can anybody come and do this? Yeah, yeah, you can yeah um, so obviously we’re on the top 110 golf podcast. We should talk about some top 100 courses. So we have already discussed sillith. That we’ve played. Yeah, mutually great course. It’s been getting a lot of traction recently. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I haven’t been higher up in some night.

Will Stubbs: 54:25

It should be. It’s a special place.

Nish: 54:26

I think the ncg rankings had it up as 23, which yes that feels about right. Quid to play that?

Will Stubbs: 54:33

feels about right. It’s amazing isn’t it think about some of the courses. We should be in front of that as well, like it was.

Nish: 54:40

It was a cracking, cracking course, but what, what? What would you say is your favorite of the top courses that you play?

Will Stubbs: 54:48

because I think you’ve played a few yeah, dornuk by my own, yeah, it’s just a special place, um, so we’ve got a green stage there at the highlands university, um, and I went up there to do some um support with them and talk about future development with them, um, and sort of missed this bit off the conversation which we had before. But like I was like right, I’m in dawn, I’ve got to go and see the golf course, just go there. So I went and it was like snowing, like literally snowing right and then literally, and then you could look one way and it’s just golden skies and then, that way, just snow. And I’m just like what is going on here? What’s this weird place?

Nish: 55:24

yeah, and then that way just snow and I’m just like what is going on here? What’s this weird place I’ve been?

Will Stubbs: 55:26

The gorse is coming out, yeah, and then going, you know.

Nish: 55:28

He managed to still like get out it was, oh yeah, so the next day.

Will Stubbs: 55:32

So I finished up with the guys you know and then the next day hour drive. You know, I’ve got a. My hamstrings are already screaming at me and I’ve got jeans on. Actually, at this point because I’ve already sort of written off in my mind that realistically, I’m never going to get invited royal don’t know how I’m ever going to get on that place. But one, you forget, you’re in scotland and everyone, if you, if you want to play golf, you can play golf, you know, I mean, unless you’re playing at trump national or turnberry or something. Um and two, the guy who was there he used to be the assistant pro there he was like, oh no, I’ll take you out. So I was like, amazing, at this point I’m still thinking he was like, yeah, 200 quid, there’s nothing for a top 10 course in the world. I’m like, yeah, it’s still nothing. I’m like, yeah.

Jim: 56:20

So, I walk into the pro shop.

Will Stubbs: 56:21

I’ve got my jeans on, I’ve got my trainers on and he’s like yeah, yeah, yeah, go on. So I’ve got Apple Payout, just with eyes closed, one of them, ones Boop and I’ve actually still got the receipt in my bag and I can actually pull it out for you.

Nish: 56:36

15 quid, yeah that’s sickening, playing Royal.

Will Stubbs: 56:39

Doughnut with jeans on.

Nish: 56:41

Because that’s in in the top three or four courses in the country isn’t it?

Will Stubbs: 56:45

Yeah, I think it’s still in the top ten in the world. Wow, do you play it for £15? £15. I mean, I’m a Yorkshireman so anything for £15 we’re laughing, aren’t we Apart from my pint.

Nish: 56:58

We’ve been out to London just recently, so £15 is fine.

Will Stubbs: 57:02

But a special place, and I’ve always thought this is like whenever you play a really great golf course every single par three just leaves a massive stamp on you like it’s.

Will Stubbs: 57:13

They’re not only challenging but beautiful and they’re like a real benchmark for the whole the rest of the course and every single par three there is just ridiculous. Like the second hole, like if you miss a green, it’s like on a? It’s on hole. Like if you miss a green, it’s like on a? It’s on a pyramid. If you miss a green, right or left, you’re gonna have a terrible time in there. You know what I mean?

Will Stubbs: 57:33

um, and pick the ball up yeah, oh yeah 100, um, but the architecture of the whole place is just beautiful. It’s like I say nearly, I think it’s like nine, four, ten, four, it’s a par five. It’s coming back along the sea and the architecture of it like, if you go down the left hand side, you you’re flirting with going onto the beach and going out of bounds, but it’s got these little undulations and you hit that bam, that golf ball’s gone. And on the right hand side you’ve got these deep, big, deep undulations and if you hit a goal, if you hit it, if you bail out, you ain’t got the bottle, you hit it into one of those sides, it’s gonna, it’s fine, but you’ll end up in the bottom of this. You’ll have a shot where you probably can’t hit a wood onto the green because you can’t. One, you can’t see it, and two, you’re gonna have to launch it up to go out and on and it’s just a special one.

Will Stubbs: 58:17

It’s a special place, yeah and um, like I say, like I walked on with jeans and it’s and with trainers on to go and play with a top 10 golf course in the world Amazing, yeah, just as an experience, but also just amazing.

Nish: 58:30

All those things lead to it, don’t they? In that experience, we talk about apres surf as well, but apres golf.

Will Stubbs: 58:36

Apres golf baby.

Nish: 58:38

I think the fact that you drive up nine hours, that adds to it.

Will Stubbs: 58:43

It heightens the anticipation. It might even be more than nine hours. That adds to it yeah, it heightens the anticipation and then it might even be more than nine hours. I could remember getting into scotland and going, oh, I’m in scotland, and it was like another seven hours.

Nish: 58:50

I was like, oh my goodness yeah, and the golf delivers, so yeah yeah, oh wonderful yeah, I think we. I gather we’ve got an open invitation to go and play at roll dornock, according to chris, so we’ll uh very much looking forward to playing that.

Jim: 59:04

Yeah, apparently, if you close your eyes when you pay, it’s £15. Yeah.

Nish: 59:08

Can you imagine, just rock up and go? I’ve heard this trick, I’ve heard this trick.

Will Stubbs: 59:13

Eyes closed Apple.

Jim: 59:14

Pay £1,500.

Nish: 59:16

What’s going?

Will Stubbs: 59:17

on no. To be fair, I think it’s still probably the cheapest in the top 10 in the world, Wow.

Nish: 59:25

So I think at the max it’s probably 250, 200 quid or something which I mean you still all right, isn’t it for a?

Will Stubbs: 59:28

top 10 course in the world.

Nish: 59:29

It’s ridiculous and, yeah, some of the, some of the courses that you know they are looking eye-watering but um, yeah, yeah well will thank you for your time today.

Will Stubbs: 59:38

No man, thank you for so much incredible, absolutely incredible.

Nish: 59:42

Um, look, everybody listening watching. Please do both, because you can see this amazing backdrop that we’ve got. And look, share this episode, spread the word. And please spread the word about this amazing facility like, yeah, yeah, the fact that you can just jump on, pay a bit money, jump on and and use it.

Will Stubbs: 59:59

Experience it can be amazing, come, come, be in charge of your own learning, be in charge your game. You know um, but yeah, give us a follow on um all the social medias and stuff and you’re sure you guys will.

Will Stubbs: 1:00:10

We’ll pop all the links on, of course, but you’ll see, like the people which we work with, and you know, ultimately we’re not one of those companies who, you know, sell you on the features, we sell you on the, the testimonials and the authority of the people who use it. You know, you know we’ve got coaches out there who have always coached on the flat and then they said that you know, within one swing on this, on a swing stage, I changed a golfer’s golf. You know, I changed a pga tour player. I changed him back, but just changing the slope. Amazing. And that’s what we should be doing.

Will Stubbs: 1:00:40

We should be not not trying to tell him to grip it in a different way, stand in a different way. Let’s just change the slope. Let’s see what happens let’s explore and, um, I think we’ll all have a better attachment to that journey and hopefully, play longer, play better and hopefully have more opportunity to play top 100 golf courses in our time absolutely without hating it, without going there, and loving it?

Nish: 1:01:02

yeah, absolutely loving the undulation. Yeah, using the undulation absolutely that’s it.

Jim: 1:01:07

Yeah, yeah, and you’re about to launch your own podcast at some point in the near future, is that correct?

Will Stubbs: 1:01:12

yeah, yeah, craig’s the man behind that. Um, so it’s going to be called for better for longer um and it’s all going to be geared around, um, how we can understand, how we can learn this game. You know it’s it’s. You know it’s. Learn this game. It’s going to be for better, for longer, by Zen Golf. It’s going to be about encouraging people to understand the people who are part of our journey, and you guys will be part of our journey now.

Jim: 1:01:37

We will gladly come back and we’ll gladly be on there maybe you can show us how an actual We’ll be listeners and watchers of the podcast. Of course yeah. You can show us how an actual We’ll be listeners and watchers of the podcast.

Nish: 1:01:45

Of course, yeah you can show us how an actual podcast is done. That’d be fantastic. We’d love that. Yeah, we’ll get you guys in. Yeah, thank you.

Will Stubbs: 1:01:50

Get you guys back for some lessons as well. I think you could have that as a nice little segment.

Nish: 1:01:54

Very much needed. Learning golf in a Zen way, yeah.