The Rankings Earthquake: What Just Happened to the Top 100?

Why This Episode Had to Happen

Nish 0:35

Every good story is about the journey. This is the story of our journey trying to play the top 100 courses in the UK and Ireland in just 10 years. This is the Top 100 in 10 Golf Podcast. That’s like somebody’s told what’s happened with this ranking chain, James is like somebody’s told me Santa doesn’t exist. It’s not real, and I really don’t know what to do with that stuff. And and that’s happened, and that is why I’ve done this episode. So we’ve got a special episode for you today, and before we get into it, and I introduce my guest, I just want to let you know in this episode, we express a lot of opinions on the world of Top 100, and it they are opinions only. We are surrounded by this world of lists and what people think should be on a list and isn’t on a list and all that kind of thing, and it very materially affects our day-to-day world, really. So me and my guest, we’re both trying to play the top 100 courses in the UK and Ireland, and this episode is about rankings, and there has been a massive change in the last month in the world of rankings. So this is our take on it, this is our opinion on it. Uh please take it as such. If you do have something you wish to add and contribute, please do. We’re here to open up a conversation and and have that with you. Please be kind and just respect that it is our opinion. Uh and we hope you actually do enjoy this episode because it is quite interesting to take people along on the journey with us. And this has been such a big change that it’s important we did cover it and we didn’t just gloss over it. I’m joined by a guest who’s been on previously, it’s James, and we had a wonderful chat with him last time about the top 100 journey. And James is like my sort of top 100 hero because he’s rifling through this list so quick, I can’t keep up. My pen is burning on the paper. But we keep in regular communication about how he’s getting on, and and you know, just a generally nice guy to know. And we’ve been chatting about the thing that’s hot in Top 100 world at the minute, and that is the update in ranking to the official Top 100 GB and Ireland list. So we have had such animated chats. I said, I was like, we need to do an emergency episode on this because I have never had so many messages on my Instagram feed and uh DMs ever, and that includes my personal stuff. So I was like, well, either I’m very boring or this is an incredibly hot topic. Now, James is uh in a fortunate position, he knows and he’s played so many courses that he’s got really good contacts in the top 100 world, and he’s been getting messages off them as well. So he’s got a really good flavour of what the general feeling is around it, and we are going to unpack all of that. So welcome back, James.

James 3:49

Yes, lovely, lovely to be here and chat to you again about yeah, all things top 100 and the drama of the last well, the last month I’d say, as they gradually release this is Scotland, this is Ireland, this is England, and everyone’s like, Well, that’s that’s that’s changed quite a lot in England, is it now we’re gonna oh yeah, that that is gonna fall out of a top hundred, seemingly out of nowhere, as hundreds of people have just spent £450 on green fees to play it in the last two years, thinking it’s part of their we have to tick it off. We have there’s no way the JCB’s not a top 100 course. It’s look at it, it’s amazing. Oh. Apparently, someone doesn’t like Parkland courses anymore.

Nish 4:29

Yeah, I mean, you know, let’s so well, let’s let’s give everyone a bit of a flavour, I think. We we are we have to say we’re probably self-confessed nerds about these lists, and we’ve got our respective spreadsheets. Um but we have to be because we’re trying to play the top 100 golf courses in the UK and Ireland. Now, I would say to the uninitiated, this would be quite a stable list because there are there are not many brand new golf courses getting built, if any at all. Like you just get a handful.

James 5:07

Last year was weird, because there was two in Scotland, right? But yeah, that was an outlier, yeah.

Nish 5:13

Yeah, so you gotta go like for them to then break into what are viewed as what should be or viewed as the best 100 courses in the land, however, objective or subjective that list might be, but to break into that, you you know, you’re not and you’re not gonna really get really get much fluctuation because of courses don’t really change a huge amount unless there’s been massive investment put into it and and whatever. Maybe we’ll unpack that as well. But yeah, it this year has been like let’s describe it as something mega like it’s been seismic.

James 5:47

Yeah, I’m happy I hadn’t finished my list before this year happened because so much has changed. It’s led to us changing parts of our got a trip to Scotland a couple of weeks, you’ve had to throw in some courses last minute that we’re thinking, well, that wasn’t even on our radar as a top 100 GB and Island courses, uh, of course. Got friends that sorry, go on.

Nish 6:09

Give me a headline of one that’s sort of just come out of nowhere.

James 6:13

The two the the the headlines are two old school Scottish courses. So Brora was 99th, haven’t played it, was kind of hoping please just drop out because I don’t need to go to the Highlands again. Just if it drops two spots, it’s fine. That’s got to 59th, so like a rise of 40s, which is which is mental thing. Nothing’s really changed sweat. But then Elie or the Golf House Club at Elie, as it’s I think properly called, was unranked. So that means it’s somewhere, let’s say, 110th, 115th in GB and Ireland, and uh coming at 54 above Hankley, Gullane, Trump is extraordinary given it hasn’t, correct me if I’m wrong, hasn’t really been touched massively in 120 years. What’s changed?

Nish 7:09

What’s changed? And I think that’s a great question because I feel like that’s gonna be one repeated during this episode, and I think that’s gonna be one that it’s gonna be a constant theme running through here. Like, what has actually changed for that amount of change to occur? I mean, that is almost like they’ve what have they done, dug it all up, planted a golf course in there? Like, what have they done?

James 7:38

Yeah, so it’s not like it’s not it’s not the Addington is going through a restoration change back to how it was. So that’s a logical change. But from what I can gather, and my favourite line. So top 100 golf courses did an article on Elie two months ago, maybe related to the rise, maybe not. But they describe the finish. The beauty of it is how unremarkable it is, which feels like to be 54th from Great Britain and Ireland after being unranked for years. It just it just doesn’t, and I’m gonna play it in two weeks, so I look forward to letting you know oh my goodness, I got I got this completely wrong. But I’ve yeah, fair few videos of it, read a fair few course reviews of it, and I’m sure it’s brilliant, but the criteria to rank that course 54th must be something drastic, and that’s what I think a lot of people are trying to get to the bottom of us.

Nish 8:38

You know, yeah, you sort of mentioned the addington. I also know I I just played it last couple of weeks ago, and that’s Wallasey. Uh Wallasey um John McLochlin gave us a wonderful interview about the changes, about the investment that’s gone into that course, which has rightly so been rewarded with with an uplift in the rankings, and it’s comfortably in that top 100 now, and I fully endorse that. But you’d kind of go, well, hang on a minute. Did we’ve spent millions of pounds on upgrading the course to then get recognized? But if you haven’t, like what’s the criteria there that’s resulted in? Because how do you go from unranked to well, how do you do it Leicester City?

Wallasey vs Elie: The Contradiction

James 9:22

You know, it doesn’t make any sense, does it? But it’s then when they say that actually course conditioning doesn’t matter, it’s about the architecture. But if course conditioning doesn’t matter, Wallasey wouldn’t be rising. Like is the it’s not change, the course conditioning is unbelievable, it’s as good Birkdale, and that’s a huge part of why people are going to play it, and it’s the paths are managed or the fairways are perfect. So that’s rising. That makes sense. It’s a stunning course, but then of course conditioning it you can’t have both. So either it matters or it doesn’t matter.

Nish 9:54

Yeah.

James 9:54

And it does it’s just it’s hard for me to get my head around how two such vastly different approaches to the top hundred, and Wallasey and Elie can see such yeah, they they they’re they’re both climbing the rankings, obviously, Wallasey a little bit less drastically than it sort of points to these spots that would indicate confused thinking, perhaps.

Nish 10:17

That’s one uh way of thinking about it, which then in that instance makes you wonder about how anything is ranked. And we’ve wrestled with it. We started us off very naively, James, and um, and I’m sure everybody who’s trying to play the top 100 has this in their mind. Like, I’ll be able to rank these myself. And I know you have, and you’ve got your sort of list, and we have attempted to, and we’re just like, we cannot do this because there are boffins who have worked out a way that is to try to make it a bit more objective than subjective. So we struggled with that, and we’ve really wrestled with the whole and we just ditched it, like it’s got to a year, and we went, can’t I can’t remember and compare it to the first course I played, I can’t do it. Yeah, but if you are then you know one of only three or four official lists, you know, there has to be a bulletproof methodology, right? That takes all the variability out of it and in instills trust in your list.

James 11:18

Um I think it’s a bit like a FIFO or a trust pilot, where there’s a you just have an implied authority on the subject, and you have a massive responsibility to get it right. And I feel like that’s where the top hundred website is going wrong. They’re absolving themselves of the responsibility and they’re saying, Well, this is what it is, and as a result of that, you’re costing golf clubs hundreds of thousands of pounds. If you if you tank something on the ratings, or if you give right something on the ratings, there’s serious, serious money involved. It does, yeah. And there’s just a moral obligation of the top top 100 website Golf Monthly to have, I mean, I say get it right, it is subjective to a certain extent. But to this year, the sweeping, sweeping changes that have rippled through the community. You’ve got playing golf uh tomorrow at Remedy Oak, which everyone’s told me is stunning, has dropped down massively. And so Golf’s log. What have we done wrong? And that’s going to impact the visitor count for the year, and all of this stuff really, really matters, and the top hundred attitudes. Well, if you disagree, you don’t you know go, you know, golf course architecture.

Nish 12:37

Well, yeah, uh I have to have to say, so so look, um we’re we we we’ll give our little um have yet dis well, let’s call it a disclaimer. Uh look, we we we have and we had this little chat just before we came on. Now we’re tr we’re trying to do this uh mission, objective, challenge, whatever you’d call it, to play 100 of the best golf courses, UK and Ireland, which you know we’re lucky that we’ve got so many amazing courses here, right? And we’re coming at it from two different ways. You’re trying to play it and and and play it alone, and that’s great. I’m a shameless self-publicist, so I’m doing it by publicly and doing a podcast about it, but also I understand and I I know this because of the messages that I get that people are you know messaging me saying, I’m trying to do the same thing, and I love listening to your podcast because it just tells us about the journey, and we’ve got this struggle of trying to get onto places. So, you know, it it is incumbent on us to bring this kind of stuff out. We aren’t trying to bag anybody individually or whatever, but if we’ve had a week now, was it Saturday that came out last week? We’ve had a or no, Saturday. Yeah, it was drip drip drip fed for a month. So people were already getting a flavour of what was happening, and it’s like it’s all like you you can you can respect somebody saying that look, we’ve had a list and we’ve had it going for however many X years, right? Um and we’re completely changing our methodology, we’re completely changing how this is done, and this is the uh what would you call it? The the re the shuffling of the pack that now settles things down, and I understand that. And everyone has their needed of reset, right? I think is what they said. It’s your right to do that. That’s absolutely fine. The the problem we problem, I suppose. What would we highlight as problem? Look, DMs are going on fire, everybody’s messaging, everyone’s sort of saying stuff like, and uh we we did a post about this about Sophie Walker, that I find it incredulous that Royal Birkdale is slipping down these rankings, etc. etc. Some people have agreed with that, and some people have just gone, no, no, I completely agree with you, it’s ridiculous that it’s done it. Um but you are right. The point you just made then was there is an obligation that this list is uh legitimate, is has authority and has a bit of stability about it because you know, yeah, the those livelihoods and those, you know, those budgets they rely on that ranking, whether we like it or not, that’s just how it is.

James 15:22

You know, that’s how the exception of the big restorations and the new courses which need to find a way into the rankings, that’s fine. But I don’t you can’t have courses moving this much because it also like makes a mockery of the last rankings.

Nish 15:39

Yeah, yeah.

James 15:40

Um selfishly, anyone that’s done the journey or is doing the journey, yeah. If I’d finished it a year ago, two years ago, I’d be pretty annoyed. Yeah. And now, oh god, I’ll play the 50th Best course. Not because it’s a new one, but because I didn’t see this coming.

Nish 15:58

Yeah. Um it just doesn’t make tons of sense. It’s I mean the thing with that as well is James, if if that you get we’ll use an an we will name this one just because we know what’s happened, as in there has been a restoration project. And you mentioned it’s the Addington, they’ve done a massive restoration project and they’ve they’ve climbed the rankings as a result. Now, one course coming in like that only really fluctuates everybody down one, might be the other the couple go up one. We’re seeing wholesale shifting. You know, sometimes courses are you know, looking at a spreadsheet, they’re you know, they’re they’re dropping down 30. There’s quite a few clubs that dropped down 30 places, a few have come out of nowhere to be ranked in the mid-50s, a few have climbed from like 90 to up into the you know 60, 70, 50 range. I mean, that is you used the word before, it’s seismic, and you you kind of don’t know where you’re at now because is this going to happen again next year and the year after? And the year after that.

James 17:03

You’d think they’ve now laid their bed right. Um, and the controversy is the bed they’ve chosen to make is that Parkland courses are held in lower regard to links courses, Heathland courses, Moorland courses. So the JCB obviously is the biggest biggest example, which is I think it was 90th, maybe 80th, but anyway, it was in the top top 100 of JB and Ireland, it’s dropped to 74th in England, which would put it somewhere in the 150 range of GB and Irish courses. And from I mean, not to get into stir the ruin mill, but we all know panelists and the consensus is someone woke up and didn’t like Parkland courses before doing these rankings. Right, yeah. Which that’s that is beyond subjective because they all have their own architectural merits. Every type of golf course is different, but has its place in golf, and you need that variety of golf courses.

Nish 18:05

So to just say, I don’t like it, yeah, it’s just well the the world is built on variety, and and that’s the that’s the beauty of life, that’s the beauty of the world, and actually that is the beauty of golf, you know. We we can you can play across multiple courses and it tests different facets of your game and um and and suits people’s eyes accordingly. It’s uh yeah, it’s a very I mean look I I always think these things they have to be subjective somewhere along the line, and it’s difficult to decode or encode, I should say, something so subjective. But yeah, this there’s just such a well it’s not a mixed message, is it? You’re right. The message is parkland courses are out of fashion, don’t like it. If you’re on the coast, you’ve got a pretty good chance you’re gonna Yeah, lucky lucky you. Yeah, exactly.

James 18:52

Um you’ll you’re gonna you’re gonna you’re gonna see a bump. Um nothing, and I think there’s a few things that I mean I’ve certainly looked into that matter more than any. Um obviously for the type of golf course. I think so. On the on the website, just the official top 100, if you go go digging, they talk about the five points of guidance. Yes, number one architecture, number two strategic challenge, three variety, unless you’re popular, in which case we don’t want that kind of variety.

Nish 19:22

No, no, no.

James 19:23

We don’t want your sort here, four consistency and five, just like land management. So, in there, nothing to do with conditioning, which I guess is why Cleve Hill is still top hundred England herders. A little bit subpar conditioning-wise. Yeah. I just mentioned beforehand, the top 30 courses are completely unchanged over the last from last year to this year. Not a single 31, not a single one has moved. Everything else is just like throw and dance.

The Frozen Top 30

Nish 19:57

Yeah, yeah. And I I just you’re making an assumption about my darts skills there, James, but you’re right.

James 20:05

But if if the rankings criteria has changed that drastically, which it must have done based off the rest of them, I don’t know how to take two different examples. The most quirky golf course I’ve probably ever played, Prestwick, versus I don’t know, uh Kings barns, a modern links course. Very, very different links courses. Surely they would be assessed differently now. Yeah. Because the criteria has changed. But no, that top 30 has remained shockingly locked in. And that just doesn’t, it doesn’t add up. Um because they must have so the the criteria’s change, so you have to rank those courses differently.

Nish 20:52

We’re doing our uh Rafa Benitez now, aren’t they? These are just facts, you know. That’s what they are facts. Like the top 30 has not fluctuated a single course, so not one of them has gone even up one place or down one or anything like that. And yet, from 31, I say 31, I should say, the top 31, from 32 down to 100, yeah, they’ve it is. I won’t use a darts analogy because you know, whatever, but um it is they’re just gone. Let’s just throw them up and let’s see. And if some fall off the table, they’re gone. And then we’ll just replace them with we’ll do this with the other ones and we’ll chuck them in.

James 21:30

Um Hillside and Formby used to be side by side. They were two Liverpool courses below the above Hoylake, but below the open ones, but they’ll leave them. They were just they were always locked, it was 37, 30 off, whatever it was. It was Formby Hillside, and now they’re actually Hillside’s now 68th and Formby’s 39th. Like you’ve just the the differences they are they are very different golf courses. If you’ve played them, they’re very different golf courses. So I get they’ve got new criteria, you would rank them differently, but that just hasn’t been consistently applied, in my untrained opinion, across the entire top hundred, where should I meant St. Andrews is probably the best example of a course that’s very different to anything else. Yes. Um remains number remains number two.

Nish 22:20

Um I’ve got a thing with St. Andrews actually. So um everybody that I’ve spoken to, this is and this is with absolutely without exception, says just one thing. It it magical place to go, Homer golf, pilgrimage, blah de blah de blah de blah. Not a top 100 golf course. Because there are courses out there that are quality, you play them and you just go, they’re better. But I understand what’s there for its historical relevance, and I mean it everybody’s giddy about playing it, right? Maybe we should bring out how you’ve just recently played it, James.

James 23:00

I was gonna say, well, that I agreed with you, and then I played it backwards.

Nish 23:04

Yeah.

James 23:05

And playing it in reverse, I get it. Yeah. And it’s really like no other golf course in the world can do it. And like bunker, this bunker now makes way more sense than it used to make sense, and whatever. So part of it is the emotion of St Andrews. It’s it’s it’s it’s obviously, I think, without standing. It’s not the second best golf course in Great Britain Island, but one, 17, 18 is probably the best feeling in golf in Great Britain Island.

Nish 23:36

Yeah, and I can see what in that way in that way why it’s ranked two, because it’s like we can’t give it the number one billing. We can’t because it isn’t this RCD that gets that.

James 23:44

But it can’t be ranked two because by their own criteria, that should be. Number two is strategic challenge, number three is variety, and everyone knows miss left on every hole.

Nish 23:54

Yeah, yeah, that’s it.

James 23:54

Well, just miss left. If you go right, you’re on the new course, yeah, or you’re in the hotel for the coming on the back line. There’s no strategic challenge if every hunt every t-shirt you’re saying aim left, aim left. If you’ve got if you’ve got a pull today, you’re gonna shoot well around here. That’s not variety and strategic challenge. Historical, awesome, amazing bunkering. Yeah, yeah. But not variety, not strategic. So yeah, I think, which I have no issue at being number two for the history. But don’t run us around this whole Rickmarl of nonsense about we’re architectural experts, every single panelist is amazing, they know golf better than you, they’ve read all these incredible books. No, it’s it’s it’s not that because it just it just doesn’t add up.

Nish 24:43

Yeah, I mean, there is one thing, but own it. Yeah, yeah.

James 24:47

Own that own that it’s the history that’s the reason it’s there and the experience.

Nish 24:51

I don’t think anyone would mind like, yeah, but I don’t think anybody’d argue with that if you just said that that we make an exception for the home of golf. We make an exception for St Andrews because of what it means to this game. It cannot be a course that fades into obscurity, can’t be. It’s not possible. So it would always have a special place in the hearts, but that is why it’s not number one, because we can’t say it’s the best golf course in the UK and Ireland or the world or whatever. But we’re gonna give it its special place and due deference is what we’re gonna do. It is just yeah, I mean, the the the interesting thing here is that, and again, look, this is something I’m highlighting, it’s a fact. I’m gonna say this that I’ve read quite a lot of the commentary that has gone on underneath there is an official top 100 Instagram feed, so everybody can check this out. And I’m gonna look at if you read some of the comments, if you read some of the responses, it kind of doesn’t sit well with me. I think if you’re going to make a wholesale change like this, by the way, that is absolutely your right. You’re on a list. If the credibility of that list gets questioned enough, then it it fades in importance. And people like me in three years’ time go, that list was a load of nonsense, it’s it’s irrelevant now. We’re going with two of the other ones or whatever. But if people then come in and question you, what I have seen in the commentary back is you know, a lot of as you said, well, yeah, but do you know about golf architecture? Sorry, who are you again? That kind of thing. Or all right, well, we’ve got experts. Sorry, what uh what ex what degree in golf architecture do you have? Or it’ll be like if somebody said, Oh, what you’re telling me that this course is 26 um places better off this year, isn’t it? You know, that kind of thing.

James 26:47

The best one is well, have you play how many have you played?

Nish 26:49

How many have you played? Yeah.

James 26:51

You haven’t played 75.

Nish 26:53

Yeah, it’s what you’re talking about, but it’s just like it’s it’s belittling people publicly online when you’ve put your neck out and ripped up what you’ve previously said, and and which again, I say, within your rights, you can absolutely do that. However, as you say there, own it. Turn around and go, we have changed the way we assess these golf courses, and the list has changed drastically because of that, and now it’s reflected. Now you can expect some stability. You know, it’s almost like give us a statement, we need to know what’s happening. This is the stability you’re gonna get, this is the criteria we’ve used, this is how we’ve changed it, and then yeah, all those golf courses that do rely on that visitor income and do rely on that, you know, the the the poster posters are up and um imagine if you’re going to work and it’s your pay pay rise.

James 27:42

Well, end of year bonus, and they announce the marketing departments here are the top five performers, here the top five salesmen, whatever. I was like, and now there’s your bonus. Like, oh and that’s just impacted my entire year. That’s what these golf courses go through, yeah, every single April, waiting to see how they’ve done how they’ve done. No justification, no rubric, just a case of oh, unlucky guys. Just absolutely tanked you. There’s nothing you can do about it.

Nish 28:17

Mad, maddening, James, maddening. Uh I mean I think you know, last year, 24 when we started to 25, we didn’t see much change in in what happened, and we went, you know, this is alright. We can until when a course that we’ve played drops out, we freeze the list, and it was easy.

James 28:34

The last big name one, I think, was Birkdale. Birkdale dropping after changes, though. I get people didn’t like the changes, but at least something had happened.

Old Head Falls Off the List

Nish 28:43

Yeah, you you could justify well, somebody, somebody, somebody somewhere could justify that and say, Yeah, the changes didn’t add up or to the RPG. It was better before or whatever. Yeah, correct. You can you can point your finger to that. Um, but the changes have been made and it’s oh has it it’s dropped again, hasn’t it? Is it dropped to no no, it’s stayed this stay where it is this time around, hasn’t it? Yeah, it dropped two years ago. Yeah, that’s it. Yeah, it’s it’s yeah, it’s for for some of them too. I mean, I’m I’m gonna have I feel like I need to refer to this because um I did as you did, I didn’t do my uh big spreadsheet. And it’s kind of like you know, the the highlight drops. Let’s look at the highlight drops that we had. You know, we had uh I mean it’s a co it’s a course I’ve played, and I just didn’t Dumbarnie links. Yeah, uh from 24 to 26. So obviously, because I’m a year behind on where our rankings were, has dropped 38 places. Yeah. Now I thought it’s awesome. I played it and it’s incredible. It’s an incredible facility. Um, it’s got everything that you’d need from variety and challenge of holes. You know, I mean, what did they just not like the fact that it’s not a members’ club? Like it’s it’s weird, isn’t it? That kind of thing.

James 30:04

But it’s the it’s and it’s not even you’d think, well, it’s they’re just like modern links courses. But Kingsbarns hasn’t changed, has it? Has stayed really, really high. Carl Phillips. Well, I’m sure when the European clubs or the brassic, whatever it’s called, reopens with Carl Phillips, that’ll go high because I think certain architectures, certain architects, help quite a lot, which we can go into in a second. Yeah, one other one. Can you tell me what old head was before?

Nish 30:30

Old Head was like crazy, wasn’t it? So I’ll tell you what it was in 2024. I’ll I’ll give you that one now. Hang on. So Old Head in 2024, when we first started, was ranked where the hell does it go? Oh, it’s in the dropout. Sorry, hang on. That’s a clue. Uh, when we started in 2024, it was ranked 71. So it’s now gone. Just disappeared, yeah.

James 30:53

Completely. But the uh for reference, the last Island of Ireland top 100 course is a Port rush Valley course at 18th. In Ireland, sorry, that is. You’re going out to 25th before you get to Old Head. So that’s gotta be, again, 140th in GB and Ireland if you’re scaling that all the way down. That’s a massive drop from 70 island two years. That’s a wild drop. It’s also an extortion at Green Fee. So it’s gonna be interesting. I’m sure the Americans will still go play it because the views there are spectacular, but that’s talking about seismic. Old head, but I I know people that think it’s the best course in Ireland. Um I know people that don’t. But again, it’s just a massive, massive drop.

Nish 31:44

Well, I’ll I’ll let you know how this impacts thinking. I mean, let we I’ll detach myself from the economics of a golf club and a golf course right now, and have full sympathy with a with a a course like that because you know you you’ve obviously you’ve been you’ve been blessed with the location and and all that kind of thing, of course, but you then put yourself out, don’t you? You market. We had Sharon Smurfit who came onto our podcast, and we had the Irish Fairways guys, and you see the time investment, the effort investment that is going into solidifying their business models, and that is you know, a lot of it is, and we’ve discussed this green fees, you know, the green fee goes up, it suddenly comes onto the radar of the American tourists, and you can play it. But if you’re languishing at 160, which by the way isn’t even visible, anything out of the top 100 isn’t visible. No, we’re guessing, aren’t we? But we’re guessing. So let’s say you’re in your mid 100 to 200, whatever, 150s, 160s. You know, all of a sudden your perception of value for that course, you go, Well, it’s 450 euros to play Old Head, and it’s not a top 100 course. Like, why am I gonna tell you?

James 32:51

I’ll tell you right now, Nish, we’ve booked to play it next year because the Tee-sheets went live in March, and it was a case of we’re booking this fairly elaborate trip to Ireland.

Nish 33:01

Yeah.

James 33:02

Well, old head’s gonna be in there. So let’s very limited membership, lots of internationals. Yeah, you know, playing these trips is very it’s like it’s difficult. Everything needs to align with visitor days, and yeah, right. But we need to play old, it has to be on this day because of Waterville and Lahinch’s visitor days or whatever it was like 500 euros. And now it’s the list, and it was gonna be we have to play it because we’re doing a top hundred. So effort, there you go, we’re we’re doing it, and it better be amazing. And I’m like, Oh, I didn’t mean it. I’m sure, and we’re gonna love it. But yeah, that’s a that’s that’s a dagger that I’m sure not just I have felt booking that for next year.

Nish 33:52

And then well, it’s the this is the sub economy, right? The sub-economy around playing top 100s, and and yeah, there’s a another thing I picked up on um from being on Facebook groups and and all this sort of stuff is um there is some sneering sometimes and um patronizing use of the term top 100 hunters. Yeah, um you know, forgive us for wanting to play some of the best courses in the country, uh the the you know, our isles and the world. Forgive us for paying extortion degreen fees to go in for the privilege. Um, and we want to collect these golf experiences. I also hear a lot of stuff like, well, you know, lists don’t really matter, you know, should go and chase the experiences and whatever. And I get that, of course. However, you know, now old head falls into that category of God, you’re you’re paying a lot of money for not really ticking anything off a mission now. It’s just you’re playing it for the privilege of playing that course. And I I still want to, if I have to say, because that course I’ve been following Old Head on Instagram pretty much since we started this, and I was like, that is the sort of place I want to play goal, however well I play or not, I don’t care. I just want to stand on a T there, and you kind of go, Well, you know, I I you lose the incentive to want to do that now because you sort of think, well, I’d rather spend that 500 euros on a course that gets me somewhere towards get into 10 years’ time and going, achieved something, you know.

James 35:32

Yeah, it’s it’s like any collector of anything, be it people that try and do the 92 football stadiums, like go to the 92, yeah, people that collect movies or I don’t know, Pokemon cards or shoes, whatever it is. Yeah. Eventually it becomes a little bit obsessive, addictive. But you there is I don’t think there’s any I don’t expect people to have sympathy for no Paul James has just blown 500 euros on a green fee at old head, the horror, because you’re right, what a first-world problem to have. I mean, incredibly lucky. Um but the time that goes into something that to the outside probably looks utterly ridiculous to those that are doing and sharing the journey, they will get it, and they will have and the people that should get that more than anyone are the ones that built their entire business model around ranking the top hundred courses for no reason other than to get people to play the top 100 courses and track it.

Nish 36:30

Yeah, absolutely.

James 36:32

That’s their business model is built on people like us.

Nish 36:35

Yeah, absolutely.

James 36:36

So there must be there must be a few of us out there, yeah.

Nish 36:38

Well, I mean, this is it, and you know, you you kind of go, you you you you are right, you know, we we’re we’re lucky, we’re so lucky, and we’ve got what we’re complaining about uh a handful of really amazing courses coming in at the expense of a handful of other amazing courses, and you’re like, Yeah, whatever. But you know, it’s the thing where you people don’t see what goes on in the background, you know. And I know how much work you but but in particular because we do keep in touch about it, but you know, the courses that we’re playing this year were sorted out halfway through last year, and there was a lot of work done. So this year we’re already, as you are, you you’re sorting out 2027.

James 37:13

Yeah, you’re always paying for your holidays a year and a half of bucks, exactly.

Nish 37:17

And actually, a lot of the courses you do have to pay in advance, and you’re like, well, you know, and then now you go, I’ve paid in advance. So I’ll I’ll give you a further example. So I’m trying to sort out a trip to Scotland. Um, I was looking at uh booking up Troon, and you kind of go, I mean, not Troon’s not going anywhere out of that list, so it’s a look it’s a fortunate, but it’s uh who knows now, you know. Um but you go you know, Tune, whatever. But you look at the terms and conditions, and I would recommend everybody looks at terms and conditions before they book anything. That’s always a good that’s good life advice. But you know, you go, oh, just because your plans might have changed or whatever doesn’t mean you’re just immediately going to get a refund of your green fees, we’ll give you 50% back. And you go, all right, okay, well that’s it. And you’re like, well, that’s okay, that’s uh that’s a that’s a £400 green fee, and I’d only get £200 of that back. So now if you’re looking at a course, and it used to be that you look at a course maybe in the 90s and you go, hmm, 94, 95, probably safe, 97, 98, 9900 might drop out.

James 38:20

But they’re the ones you wait on, right? You wait on it. Like bro Brora, for example. Yeah, we didn’t go play it when we were up in door knock because 99th, it’ll it’ll drop.

The Hidden Cost: Planning, Refunds, Stress

Nish 38:28

It will eventually, but now it’s so solidly in that list that you’re like, oh, damn it, we should have played it when we had a we had an opportunity to go and do so. And it’s that that’s the kind of thing, and it’s you know I’m gonna say it like I’m not gonna be trying to overdramatic, James, but it’s really stressful.

James 38:47

It is crazy how it it’s beyond stressful.

Nish 38:53

It’s yeah. Well, you feel your best made plans, and in you know, in your head you map it out, it’s just somebody’s just gone, nah, don’t really care about that. Here we go. Just just just nuked it, deal with it, just nuked it, yeah. That’s exactly right. It’s so yeah, it’s a it’s a bizarre situation. Um look, I’m sure there are people listening to this who’s doing exactly the same as us. In fact, I know there’ll be people who are doing exactly the same as us, and they’re gonna be thinking, yeah, I think it I think this. Um, and look, the reason that we’ve done this emergency podcast is episode is to get people to talk about it a bit more. Look, we can’t do anything about it, the rankings are the rankings, that’s fine, but let’s show a bit of solidarity with our top 100 brothers uh and sisters, and we should uh you know certainly let’s give each other a bit of a supportive hand, at least, that you know, how are we gonna navigate these waters? And it’s the the the question is what happens April next year? That’s gonna be interesting, isn’t it?

James 39:59

I I think this is it. I think, yeah, because it was is is that informed or is that out of hope? It’s informed a little bit, but to go back on this, I don’t think the higher-ups at top hundred have the could put the ego aside to say we got it wrong.

Nish 40:24

Yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah.

James 40:26

So I I I don’t think they have a choice but to say, no, no, this is how we rank golf courses now. For better or for worse. We could have spent an old episode talking about the politics behind it and the rumours that we’ve all heard, but no, I I I would imagine that there’ll be there’ll be change, there always are, but I don’t think it it can’t be drastic.

Nish 40:49

No, I suppose it can’t be because that does that wheel discredits everything. It does dis discredit is exactly the right word. The list holds no authority or legitimacy then, does it? Because if every year there’s gonna be this from 32 downwards to 100, there’s gonna be this merry-go-round, like you can’t you can’t set your stall out by that at all, can you?

James 41:14

That would be but we’ve we spoke about it before. When do we lock our lists? Because there has to come a point where you I haven’t locked mine yet. Actually, this new ranking change, I’m now one course further. I haven’t worked out how it’s happened, but I’m one course further on my journey.

Nish 41:32

Yeah.

James 41:32

But if I get to if I was 85 courses in and this happened and it knocked that to 70th, would I be saying, you know what, we’ll go off the 2025 list?

Nish 41:42

Because Yeah, you’d be raging, wouldn’t you? Because I mean, you know, 1015 courses, you’re looking at you know the thick end of five to seven grand in green fees, yeah, potentially. Yeah, nowadays you are. You know, I mean, one of the big highlights actually that happened, Ireland took a bit of a battering actually, um, with courses dropping out and dropping in rankings. Um, now look, we we I have documented um in the past that it’s been tricky getting onto Ireland, it’s a difficult place to get to play golf and book you’ve green tea times and all that kind of stuff. We very famously talked about Royal County Down and they’re on their their lack of online booking and having to read whatever.

James 42:27

Speaking of stressful, try book royal county down. Exactly.

Nish 42:30

You’ve still got PTSD about that. Um but you know, or so they’re great from a selfish point of view. It’s like, oh fantastic, like seven, six, seven Irish courses are dropped out, or dropped down, and they probably may do again, or whatever. Yeah, but you kind of like I don’t yeah, I I don’t I don’t know what to like it’s like somebody’s told what’s happened with this ranking chain, James, is like somebody’s told me Santa doesn’t exist and he’s not real, and I really don’t know what to do with myself, and and that’s happened, and that is why I’ve done this episode.

The Tone Problem Online

James 43:06

This is this is just this is just like group therapy, therapy at this point. Just just talk through the trauma of the ranking that way. Um, and once you’ve spoken for an hour, almost you still feel as bad. It’s not it’s not all bad in the grand scheme of. I feel I feel worse for the green keepers that work their asses off of this um than anyone else. Um, and I just wish they took a bit more accountability. That’s what there’s I I can get over the this is scuffering my plans a little bit because I’ll pay 10 more course than I would have played before, I guess, now, or 15 more courses, but it’s the people’s jobs that matter and the work they put in that is just a guy or guys or girls at the top hundred panelists just say, yeah, we’re gonna we’re gonna affect your budget for next year’s greenkeeping, or we’re gonna do this and we’re gonna change whatever. And members at these courses are I guess I’m playing member at Remedy Oak tomorrow. I played with playing with one at um uh what’s the course called Beauty’s B in Bark. Oh no, really nice private course, got tanks in the rankings and Bearwood Lakes. And they are they’re gutted because they know how good their golf course is. Yeah. And they’re just like, anyone that’s played it wouldn’t have done this. What the heck? And that they’re they’re the ones that are suffering so. Stoneham’s gone up my local course, so I’m really happy for those guys. It matters a ton for them. Of course it is. Yeah. But no, I just wish they used their power a little, didn’t wield it with such it’s just it’s just the way it talked down on everyone else is just so irritating.

Nish 44:51

Yeah, that I must admit, that that did that didn’t sit well with me. I think the the the game is a game of opinions, and it always will be, always has been, and all that kind of thing. I think then if somebody expresses that to you, you don’t need to be yeah, talking them down, you don’t need to be belittling them, you don’t need to be exerting your so perceived superiority um in in assessing golf courses because everybody has a legitimate view on you know me and Chris argued about Cruden Bay. I absolutely love the place, I think it was great. I may not have been about necessarily the quality of the golf as such, but like the the the the air, the smell in the air of like this is what like the cradle of golf was like kind of thing. It’s like brilliant for me. Um Chris didn’t didn’t see it that way, and that’s absolutely fine. You’re allowed to think that, you’re allowed to do that. I think, but you’ve got to be able to back that up with something. I told Chris why I thought it was good, and he told me why he didn’t think it was good and why it didn’t deserve to be anywhere near the top 20 golf courses in in the UK and Ireland, sort of thing. Um, great, wonderful, a healthy way to do it. Absolutely. I can’t go around going, yeah, well, you haven’t played golf in a decent standard for 30 years, Chris. What are you talking about? Like your opinion doesn’t matter. Like it’s it’s an odd thing to odd way to handle it.

James 46:14

Right? You got them, National Club Golfer, Golf Monthly, Golf Digest, Top100golfcourses.com, which wasn’t relevant. That’s what we’re talking about today, not the other ones.

Nish 46:24

Yes, yeah, yeah. Sorry, we shouldn’t make that clear, yeah.

James 46:26

I don’t know at what point top100golfcourses.com. What would make you move to a different list?

Nish 46:35

Well, so let I think the the the the conclusion of our rambling, I won’t call it a rant, it’s not been a rant, we’ve just been confused the whole fucking time. But anyway, the the whole point, the crescendo of this episode is really uh I need to have, and we have had a little WhatsApp chat, me and Chris, but I need to have a a sit-down discussion, probably over a bottle of wine or two, about what the frig we do with our list right now. Because I so to give you the the kind of cold numbers on our side, so we lost uh eight courses dropped out of the rankings as we had it from sort of 24 blended. So last year basically what happened was we blended the list from 24, 25, because I think three courses got knocked out and we hadn’t played them, and then obviously three new ones came back in. So we went, This is pretty simple. We will set a new rule uh that when a course that we’ve played gets knocked out of the list, that’s when we’ll freeze it. And I thought that was quite a legitimate way to go about it. Like we can do that, because we’re actually to be fair, we’re not fortunate enough where we can say, let’s uh we’ll play 110, we’ll play 115. You know, we’re pretty much like 100 is our is our sort of thing. That’s our lot, that’s that’s that’s where we’re done, and we sort of like, well, where do we call an end to it? Sort of thing. Then this happened, and obviously, this change was eight courses went out from our list, of which two we’ve played. So that’s Delamere Forest and Glen eagle’s Queen’s Course, which I’m so gutted about because I’m moderately in love with Glen eagle’s Queens Course.

James 48:22

Oh good. Is it my top five? I don’t know why I’ve got it in my rankings, but absolutely yeah, I’ve got I’ve got it above Ganton, West Sussex, Royal Liverpool. I think it’s a I think it’s fantastic.

Nish 48:34

Brilliant golf course, and then obviously eight came in. Um so again, just give you the list. So Cabot Highland’s old petty. I sort of expected that to come in. A lot of fanfare about it, Tom Doak design, like it was gonna come in. Expected it somewhere around the 90s, eighties, maybe, and then climb from there. But anyway, it’s gone straight in at 51. Uh Golfhouse at Elie, 54. Trump Aberdeen new. Again, I expected that to come in because everybody who’s who I know has played it, and um, I’ll name check Adrian, who we played Trump old now with, and he said himself is like it’s better than you know, the new course is better. So expected that to come in.

James 49:14

I thought that was going to be higher. That’s the only one that I thought.

Nish 49:17

Do you think that would have been yeah going straight up?

James 49:19

Everyone that I know that’s played it would put it in their top 10 courses. Maybe it’s but I’m shocked to be cracked the top 30, top 25. I’ve I’ve heard it’s mega, mega.

Nish 49:28

Yeah, absolutely. Um, raw Port rush Valley course, um, Adelborough Golf Club, and then um, you know, Hayling, Royal Ashdown Forest Old, and Beau Desert came in, right? So you kind of go, there’s nothing against any of these clubs, by the way. Um, and they’re great. And actually, from our perspective, and we’ve got to look at it from a um logistical perspective, and some of the courses are gettable for us to get on, which is always great because there’s nothing, you know, new JCB dropping out, JCB dropping out is very amazing for a lot of people, yeah, absolutely, because it’s hard course to get onto, right? Yeah, but you know, you kind of go, yeah, so like what but what do we do? Because we’ve got two that have dropped out that we’ve played. There’s another one that is really difficult to get on to. So two are like, oh, that’s difficult. One, oh, that’s good, that’s gone, that’s great. The other five kind of take it or leave it or whatever. You know, we’ve got to sit down and go, Well, what do we do? Do we accept JCB’s still in our list and it’s bloody hard to get on to? Do we say we’re now we’ve done 22, but actually, no, we dial that back. We’ve done 20, delete posts, delete, you know, that kind of thing.

James 50:44

And you you now want to be you want to be more objective than the top 100 golfcourses.com list. Because if you say we can’t do that because JCB is hard to get, well, but that’s that’s that’s not that can’t be the reason, right? Because that would make the entire challenge is Queenwood, artfin, loch lomond, and skibo castle. That’s the story. Um, I know we’re once we get to 80, we’re locking our list. Yeah, and then that that’s an interesting way of looking at it, actually. You get to get courses, yeah. Yeah, and then it’s because then you’re not planning big trips anymore. We’re planning a little weekend at Royal West Norfolk and Hunston or whatever it is, and like let’s go down and do St. Enadoc Perranporth and what whatever. But once we get to 100, if something else comes into that list, we’re gonna want to go and play it as a one-off, aren’t we? Realistically, are you ever gonna be truly done? Yeah, probably not. Yeah, because you’re always gonna want to be you’ll be gutted if something comes in as like 98 and it’s in surrey and said it’s an hour drive, I might as well go play it. I might as well go and do it, yeah.

Nish 51:49

Yeah, absolutely. So I just think it’s weird because you know, the other thing with golf is it’s a game of numbers, statistics, percentages, all that kind of thing. And as you’re saying about collectors, you know, I mean, how gut-wrenching is it to dial your count back from 20. Just we’re at 20s, to dial it back from 22 to 20 now. 10. It’s just like what like because I was like, you know, we it’s it’s this year is a leaner year for playing top 100. We’re we’re on our count is nine, possibly 10. Uh oh, I should say 15 with the island trip, but then one of the Irish trip ones has now dropped out. So what the hell do we do about that?

James 52:31

Um well it might come back in, right? That’s the thing. It might so you still want to play it in case it comes back next year, you and you’re like, oh, why don’t I don’t do it?

Nish 52:39

I just think it’s it’s so is like so up in the air, you know, and you’re like, well, okay, let’s uh we I was I was relying on getting to like 30, say, this year, and I’m like, well, in two years, 30. Good, we’re ahead of the rate, fantastic. Well, no, we’re not now because it’s 28 in and and like we are ahead of the rate a little bit, but then winter comes and you’re not playing as many, and you drop behind the rate, and it just gets to you, you know. You’re like, is the I haven’t booked too many, we haven’t put that many, we’re not we’re we’re behind now. Like, what do we do?

James 53:08

And just yeah, we’re we’re blitzing it so we don’t necessarily have that I because I think we’ll be done in two years.

Nish 53:16

Yeah.

James 53:17

Maybe three, but I reckon we’ve got two ranking cycles to get through now. Yeah, just endure. Like we could live, we can live with that knowing that this is the big one. And then if we play 105 course, play 105 courses, yeah. It’s still a mega, mega journey.

Nish 53:34

Um yeah, it’s it’s it’s difficult, it’s difficult to figure this out now. And I think that’s that is me and Chris. I think we’re probably gonna do a a little mini follow-up episode from from this chat, really. And I think it maybe we’ll do our we’ll do a um time lapse of me and Chris getting getting pissed in the kitchen where it all started, and just going, right, how the hell are we gonna re reassess this list? One of us comes out with a black eye, and then you know who won the fight, sort of thing. Absolutely right. Um but yeah, it’s yeah, I mean look, I did uh that’s when it all came out there is not much that shocks me, but that shocked me. I was just like, uh what has just happened here? Yeah, you know, we’ve had what two courses made with old petty and Trump Aberdeen new. But yeah, eight have come in and yeah, it was yeah.

James 54:42

There’s always conversation, isn’t there? There’s always something to talk about on the just when you think it’s getting boring. It’s yeah, someone does this.

Nish 54:49

Yeah, and people say golf’s a boring game, and you know, then all this happens, but well look, it this this has been a massively enlightening chat, James. Um we’re gonna I’m gonna leave it on this comment. There’s a lot more that we know that we’ve probably felt not comfortable saying because you know, some of it is based on a bit of second-third hand stories, shouldn’t really spread that. Some of it has been based on there’s two sides to every story, that kind of thing, so probably shouldn’t really use that. Let’s stick to the Rafa Benitez facts, and and that’s what we’ve tried to do by highlighting where the changes haven’t haven’t come in, yeah, how they don’t make any sense. But you know, I do see it as something that hopefully other people who are trying to play top 100 courses and having this internal conversation, and it might have just struck a chord with you. So drop us a comment, um, share it with your pals who were trying to do the top 100 as well. Like, I’d love to have a chat with everybody about this, and yeah, maybe this is. I’ve always wondered about whether we could take top 100 in 10 golf podcasts on the road, and this might be the concept and the opportunity to do so. We get everybody in a room and just like do an old school uh council parish meeting debate thing.

James 56:13

We’ll sit up on the stage in a school with those get every get get the green keeper every golf course that’s found its way in, and everyone that’s been dropped out, yeah, and just let them go at it. Yeah, last man standing.

Nish 56:26

Yeah, yeah, we’ll get all those old bench, old school benches out, you know, that you used to do P on and then sit on it in the in in assembly and all that kind of stuff. And um yeah, I’m I’m sure there’ll be some well, I’m sure that the the general pervading attitude and and um thoughts are gonna be that what has happened, how it’s messed up our planning and lists, and how it’s messed with our equilibrium and the OCD in me of ticking this list off is now just yeah, it’s self self self-doubt, isn’t it?

James 56:58

Did we both get the Glen eagles Queens course wrong?

Nish 57:01

Yeah, well, I know I didn’t. I thought that was the most magnificent golf course, one of the most magnificent golf courses I’ve ever played. Um it was great. But I thank you for having me, Nesh. Oh James, pleasure. Look, um, I mean, we could this could be a at least double the amount of time that we’ve we’ve talked about. But no, thank you for sharing your opinion and uh uh you know it is appreciated. I’m sure people will agree, disagree, whatever they want to do. Uh but I think you know you can you can be civil with it, and I think that was the thing that really stuck out at me and has rankled a lot of people who’ve sort of said, you know, a negative comment isn’t received in the spirit that it’s given. I get it. Look, the internet and social media is a funny old world. There are keyboard warriors out there, and that but golf is a bit better than that. You know, people will voice their opinion, but I’ve found everybody’s been you know, I’ve had loads of people who’ve completely wildly disagreed with me in the comments, and I’ve read it and I’ve thought, no, I don’t I don’t agree with your back, but I’ve also said I don’t agree with you, but I do respect that you have an opinion about it, and that’s absolutely fine. You’re allowed to have that opinion, there’s no problem. Um, that’s the way to deal, I think, with somebody who doesn’t agree with your rankings, in my opinion. You just go, This is how we do it. I’m really sorry, we can’t please everybody.

James 58:23

And yeah, some of we haven’t played the one that got the biggest, I guess, bash russals eagly today. I’m playing it in a couple of weeks. Almost certainly now I’m gonna text and say, How was that never ranked? No way that’s not happening after this. But yeah, no, it’s nothing against any golf course whatsoever. It’s more the principle of how they came to the conclusion than the actual merits of the course.

Nish 58:49

We’re not here to bash any any golf courses. It’s not it’s not anybody’s, it’s no, it’s nobody’s fault. It’s not even the fault of the people who’ve done the rankings, it’s just you know, but if there is a methodology that has methodology that has changed, just let us know. Like everybody just knows where they stand then. But you know, we found it when we did our ranking episode on like how the rankings are worked out, we did find it a bit vague and confusing, and just didn’t really know how we could figure it out.

James 59:17

But it’s there, but the outcome doesn’t match the formula, and that’s that’s that’s where I’m confused because they they it’s it’s in the website view you can find how they’ve done it, but by the same token, what they’ve got doesn’t make sense if that is how they’ve done it, and that’s where the that’s where there’s the walk.

Nish 59:38

That’s the yeah, exactly right. And I think that’s the trade. Have there been do you think there’s been any change to the the methodology then?

James 59:45

Are they actually apart from what we’ve well besides the parkland thing the for the the parkland the lack of parkland isn’t a methodology change because and they’ve never they’ve always said it’s not about um conditioning, so yeah, just it nothing’s changed drastically, but someone’s opinion on what fills those five criteria has changed.

Nish 1:00:12

Yeah, uh no, thank you, James. I really, really appreciate it. And um interesting times, and uh just when you think it’s getting boring, well not boring, but just when you think it’s just a matter of ticking off these hundred. Somebody came and flipped the table over.

James 1:00:28

Yeah.

Nish 1:00:29

Wonderful. Thank you, mate. Thanks, James. Uh, until next time on the top 100 in 10 Golf Podcast.