The Simulator That Moves Under Your Feet (ZenGolf x TrackMan) – Royal County Down Indoors

Nish: 0:00

Every good story is about the journey. And this is the story of our journey trying to play the top 100 quarters in the UK and Ireland in just 10 years. This is the top 100 in 10 golf podcast. This stage is gonna move as I’m playing golf.

Will: 0:17

Instead of you’re paying £400 per round, you get me for free. We’re not playing swing anymore, we’re playing golf. Well what we want is we want people to not see this as amazing, we want people to see this as a necessity.

Nish: 0:30

Today I’m playing Royal County Down without leaving the room. Because this simulator floor literally moves under your feet like you’re standing on the dunes for real. And what happened in this episode genuinely changed how I think about practice because we weren’t working on swing anymore, we were playing golf. And it led me to a real eureka moment about my play from the slopes. Before we carry on, could I ask you to hit like or subscribe or follow wherever you’re listening to or watching this podcast? We’re able to bring great content like today because our podcast is growing, we have a greater growing audience, and we’re able to demonstrate to the people that we want to interview that we have that audience and that they’re engaged. And we can bring you great content like this exciting episode. In today’s episode, I’m going to be talking to Will, who is head of education at Zen Golf over in Sheffield. They have just recently at the PGA show in Orlando in January announced a brand new product to the market, which is their Swing Studio combined with a trackman integration, which means that the stage will automatically move according to the lie that you’ve got while you’re playing simulator golf. It is truly mind-blowing, it’s a world first, they’re a British company who are doing this and leading this end of innovation, they’re forward-thinking and always evolving. And what it’s giving you, as you’ll find out from this episode, is a more realistic way to practice golf and play golf. And it practices not just the physical act of playing golf, but I found also the decision making that you’re doing as you’re playing golf and going around a golf course. This is me basically getting a live playing lesson with Will and interviewing as we’re doing it. Now, what I have done is I’ve left the first hole in its entirety for you to listen to so you can hear that decision making going on. But I haven’t done it for the full playing lesson. But it’s just to give you an idea of how you change from just being stood at a screen, looking at one number and hitting to that to actually thinking how you are going to play golf. This is a brilliant episode.

Will: 3:04

So yeah, so we’re we’re playing county down, we’re all county downs, we’re all counted downs number one on our list.

Craig: 3:10

Not just playing county down, you’re right, you’re gonna feel the slopes of county down.

Nish: 3:13

I’m gonna feel the slopes of counted down, so yeah. I mean, like this is the I mean, this is it, this is our world famous now, Will, right? This yeah, the world famous swing stage. And we’ve got a trapman integration here that’s gonna this stage is gonna move as I’m playing golf. Yeah. Which is mind-blowing.

Will: 3:34

Yeah. So today, instead of you’re paying £400 for a round plus your caddy, you get me for free, and you get a round for free. So let’s see how you play.

Craig: 3:44

Yeah.

Will: 3:45

A little bit cheaper. Get a fan. Can we have a fan, please?

Nish: 3:48

I need some wind.

Will: 3:49

Yeah, so yeah, I’m your caddy today. I’m just gonna I’m gonna talk you through the course. I want you to talk back to me. Right, wonderful. Just let me know what you’re thinking.

Nish: 3:57

Okay, well, look, it’s a par five to start here, so looking pretty narrow. I probably need to head out a little bit to the to the right. So, yeah, Will’s my virtual caddy. And I’ve sort of essued talking to your caddy as you’re making shot selections and what you want to do because it helps you visualize a little bit. So we’ll see how that works. But this is one of those fairways again, it’s like two-tone cut, I think. I can see. I’ve had my eyes tested to see recently, and I’ve got some new glasses now, which are semi-verifocal so I can see better.

Will: 4:28

Like Superman now.

Nish: 4:29

Yeah, exactly. I can actually see an HD. Finally. So I’ve sent that onto the beach, I think. Have you got a beach setting on your no?

Will: 4:40

We’ve got out-of-bound setting though, and that’s in there. What does that do then? We’ve bet to the T. Oh, it’s moving.

Nish: 4:46

It’s actually moving there.

Will: 4:48

Yeah, so it’s it’s actually moving to the slope of the sand, which you would actually be stood on there. So you’ve got a decision, you can either re-hit or you can pick up from wherever you want to go. Oh, I’ll re-hit, of course. So we’re gonna re-hit. So that’s a breakfast ball. Not worry about that one. Yeah. But already you can sort of see where the experience is going. So this this will then came to came to rest. It’s gonna basically replicate the exact the exact slope you’re gonna have on the course.

Nish: 5:13

So that you know, the the the big challenges when you’re playing sim golf, and obviously it’s been winter time, so I’ve been playing quite a lot of sim golf, has been, you know, you and I was joking about it before. I love playing out of rough on a simulator because it’s a lovely, perfect lie again, you can just hit it and it’s fine, but suddenly that’s out of the equation now because you are going to get the severe heel, all that kind of thing, yeah, which is incredible, really, isn’t it?

Will: 5:38

Yeah, it’s this is what I’m excited about just to hear how you play golf and listen and watch how you play golf.

Nish: 5:44

Yeah, absolutely. Which is you know, it’s all decisions you’re making at the time when you’re when you’re playing. That’s more like it. Straight down the pipe. I’m liking that right hand side rough, aren’t I? Oh, yeah, so that’s all right. So we’re getting now a bit of a bit uphill. I mean, that’s drastically different now. That I think you’re onto something here, Will. Maybe we might be onto something. This could be something that could work. I think it’s got lengths.

Will: 6:09

As your caddy, I’m gonna let you know a couple of things. Okay. So to the green, you’re 282 yards. Let’s think the end of the fairway, sort of where it closes in, 217 yards. Okay. Yeah. You’re out the bus, so it’s gonna take a bit of distance off that, which is probably gonna make it like a 250 shot. So from there, at the end of the fair, it’s gonna leave you 100 yards in. Yeah.

Nish: 6:31

Yeah.

Will: 6:31

What are you thinking, sir?

Nish: 6:34

So line of the flag is gonna drop me where you’ve got that. So that’s a three-wood, is it? It’s gonna drop me 270 with 100 left.

Will: 6:41

Doesn’t have to be it’s just a simulated three wood.

Nish: 6:44

So that might be yeah, I think I’ll play my four hybrid, I think, here. Nice. I think. Which should give me a bit of forgiveness, hopefully. But I can usually get this about 200-ish. I think I’m just basically going straight to the flag. I can’t say this is enough to make me think about where I’m aiming or anything in terms of slope at the minute.

Will: 7:13

Lovely strike.

Nish: 7:15

So still in the rough, and the floor is again moving now.

Will: 7:18

So what you’re gonna get is that.

Nish: 7:20

See, now it’s giving me the so this is now ball above the feet. Yep. Which is kind of where you want to be at, don’t you? That’s this is the sort of stuff you want to be practicing. And that’s appreciably appreciably above my feet now, that.

Will: 7:33

Yeah, so this is gonna go to max slope now. So now you’ve got 170 yards, you’ve got a similar line in the roof. You can see the green, you’ve got plenty of green in front of you. Yeah, the last shot you pitched about what 155. So front of the green is probably gonna be about right for you. And basically, coming out of the rough. Yeah, I think if you stuck with this club.

Nish: 7:53

I think it’s my four hybrid again. Yeah. I’m gonna aim a little bit right to adjust for this slope. Yeah. Because it’s gonna shoot off to the left. And hopefully, my natural draw will come into it a bit as well. So, right, that’s my aim out there. Choke down a little bit on the club. Ah, isn’t that too far, right? Is it gonna come round? Is the question. No. That is so much different.

Will: 8:21

This is it.

Nish: 8:21

So this is That’s mind-blowing.

Will: 8:24

You can order here, like, instead of you just stepping up and going, right, how far is it? What club do I need to hit?

Nish: 8:28

Yeah. You’re thinking about You’re only ever looking at one number normally on your sim.

Will: 8:33

Yeah.

Nish: 8:33

You’re only looking at what the distance is. Exactly. I mean, look, it’s it’s moving back down now, and like it’s pretty much. You’ve got a left to right slope. Sort of left to right here.

Will: 8:43

So you’ve got a left to right pitch. Interesting. Decent amount of green to work with. Coming out of again. This is so good. Right. Talk me through the shot. What do you think?

Nish: 8:54

I’m gonna get my I’m gonna play my gap wedge here, I think.

Will: 8:58

So throw it onto the green is 30 yards, to the pin it’s 44.

Nish: 9:02

Probably it’s my fifth this is just my 50 degree gap wedge here. So I’m probably just gonna go with a little half half of this, I think. Yeah, a little half of this. A little Dan Greaves special. I think I’ll do. That’s okay. Good effort.

Will: 9:20

So we’ve got it on auto two put. Perfect. So if you’re inside that little.

Nish: 9:24

That’s the thing, Will, I think. Am I putting at the minute?

Will: 9:26

We’ll find that later. Amazing. So auto two put, and then we’re straight on to the next hole.

Nish: 9:32

Yeah, and then your your stage is gonna set itself to the next T.

Will: 9:36

Yep.

Nish: 9:37

So You you can’t you basically you could play raw county down, you could play that on repeat for the rest of your life, and you could probably never play the same thing ever again because you’re gonna be on different bits of the course all the time.

Will: 9:51

Exactly. We’re human beings, we don’t do the same thing every time, do we? Yeah, we’re not we’re not we’re not robots. You know, everyone who plays golf knows that they swing it different every single day. So instead of you just going on a sim and experiencing the visual aspect of the sim golf, now you’re actually experiencing a golf course, aren’t you? And everything which that brings into it.

Nish: 10:10

I mean what’s interesting is that we we’ve taught on previous episodes with with other guests, there have been other guests, I’m sorry, Will, but uh we spoke about meaningful, I know about meaningful practice. Yeah, and this is about as meaningful as it gets. It’s practicing the actual course, but it’s never going to be repeated. No.

Will: 10:28

In in in sports science, in like motor learning, um, we call this representative practice. So it’s represented learning design. So it’s about trying to take as much from the actual practice environment into uh into the where we play into the practice environment. So if you were just on a range, a perfect example is that is just go right, I’m gonna go stand on the range, I’m gonna visualize the golf course which I’m playing. One my golf course, I’m gonna go right off the first T, it’s the driver. Then based on where I hit it, I’m probably gonna have on how well you hit it, or left or right, you understand your course, you go right. Next, I’m gonna have a sandwich intro, the next shot’s a sandwich. So instead of just going, right, I’m gonna pick out a flag and I’m gonna beat 100 balls 7-9. You know what I mean? So there’s a big difference bet between what you actually do on the golf course compared to what you do in terms of your practice, and that’s what we talk about meaningful, purposeful practice. Yeah. So the same thing here, yes, we’re gonna go and play golf, we’re gonna have some fun, and we’re gonna, you know, maybe crack a few beers open, have a bit of pizza within a sim environment. But actually, if we can actually make practice more realistic and as close to the experience which we have on a golf course, the transfer of those skills are gonna be the same. Yeah, it’s like um if you want to go and be really good at ice skating, what do you need to do? You need to get your ice skates on and you need to get on some ice. There’s no point in getting ice skates on and doing it on the carpet here. Yeah. Because ultimately the the glidability, what they what the ice gives you, is the same thing as the hit ability of what the golf course gives you. So the slope changes how you see a shot, changes how you feel. Yeah. But also then when you go onto the golf course, and this is why it’s so important to when make sure that you have on-course practice, is that you’re then going into the different lies and feeling what those are like. What’s it feel like to open a golf uh a wedge up in the roof? How do you play with like closing it down? Yeah, and all those different things. So it’s something which we’ll explore.

Nish: 12:27

And obviously, you’ve got uh I’ll I’ll I’ll I’ll hit this one for do my George Bush. Now why can we hit this right?

Will: 12:38

Catch a bit, or you’re gonna have a slope there, man.

Nish: 12:40

Oh yes.

Will: 12:42

Here we go. So ball’s landed now. It’s moving. You’re gonna have a massive left to left to right slope. So the ball slope. The ball’s gonna be don’t know why it’s saying that. The ball’s gonna be well below your feet.

Nish: 12:56

Yeah.

Will: 12:57

End of the fairway is still 173 yards. Yep. So we want to give yourself a shot, uh, an opportunity to have a next shot in. So if we can hit it 150 yards, we’re gonna have about 100 yards in. So think about the slope, think about the rough. It’s gonna take off about 25% of your shot. Yeah. Anything which goes like 170 yards, 160 yards is the shot, which we’re looking at here.

Nish: 13:25

Probably well, I mean, out of this light rough, I wouldn’t be playing this club normally, clearly. What club have you got? I’ve got a five in my hand. Okay, so let’s. But I’m thinking of the distance and how much that’s gonna come off.

Will: 13:38

Do you not think that’s right? No, I think you’re playing it right in terms of the distances, but then like you say, you’re off this slope. Yeah. And then you also got things in front of you. So you do have a large mound ahead of you. Gotta get that over. Yeah. Can we go with seven? What do you think? You think seven’s a good one? I think seven’s a great chance. A full-blooded side. If you have a longer club in, you might end up going seven, six or seven, seven. But I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

Nish: 14:01

Seven six right, okay. Well, let’s do it. So I’m sloping that way. Yeah. So I need to look at where the pin is. Higher up on the grip. Yeah. I’ve got to get over that man, haven’t I, actually? Yeah.

Will: 14:14

And think about the fairway. So have a look in the bottom right. So the fairway’s going a little bit left to right in terms of the angle of it.

Nish: 14:20

Yeah.

Will: 14:21

So that’s gonna take it around that anyway. You’re gonna be fading towards that. So let’s use that. So you can a little bit left of that flag symbol, do you think? Yeah, I think where I’d be looking is you see where the hills join. Okay, yeah. I think that’s a good spot.

Nish: 14:35

Yeah.

Will: 14:37

Are you happy with that?

Nish: 14:38

I’m good with that. Honestly, this is it’s mind-blowing being stood here and not just being like absolutely solid on you. Yeah, yeah. On your fitting, on your footing.

Will: 14:52

A lovely strike. There you go. Oh, you got the ball.

Nish: 14:58

There we go. Oh, someone learn how to play golf. Yeah. Oh, fantastic. Uh Doff of the Captain Macaddy there, I think, who’s uh taught me into a good shot there. It’s quite easy, this roll county down course. Don’t know what the fuss is all about. There, like that that ball wants to Yeah, it’ll want to move off. It wants to move off. I mean, that’s how I’m amazing. Amazing.

Will: 15:28

Well, what we want is we want people to not see this as amazing. We want people to see this as a necessity.

Craig: 15:35

Yeah.

Will: 15:36

It shouldn’t feel like a novelty. It should be it should feel like, well, why would I go why would I go and hit four balls on the flat? Like apart from the t-shirts, every single one of these has had a slope. Yeah. And with it, there’s been a decision to make based on that.

Craig: 15:52

Absolutely.

Will: 15:53

So if we’re trying to help people make better decisions on the golf course, both in what clubs they hit and how they feel and how confident they are.

Nish: 16:00

Yeah.

Will: 16:01

Then we need that, don’t we?

Nish: 16:02

But it’s like you’re saying as well, like tell me what you’re thinking, and like you’re practicing that decision making as well. And if you can play this often enough, you’re ingraining those practices already. So you’re sort of thinking, Well, I know it’s this kind of slope, I need to be aiming a little bit more, right? Yeah, you’re having that chat as you’re walking up to it. Yeah. You’re having pace of play. I’m thinking of pace of play. This this is gonna solve pace of play. Yeah, but you know, it is it’s exactly that, isn’t it?

Will: 16:31

It’s helping decision making, it’s helping visualization, it’s helping build confidence through competence. So together, rather than going, right, I want to get confident with my seven iron, I’m just gonna go and hit a level load of seven irons. Yeah. But what happens when you’ve got a seven iron into a little bit of breeze and you’ve got to step on it, or you’ve got a seven iron, you need to actually hit a bit more flighted, or lift it up a little bit more because the pins tucked. Like, those are all different things based on the environment, yeah, which we’re not practicing, are we?

Nish: 16:57

Interesting, yeah. I mean, also they it also I’ll bring this back to a top 100 type thing now. So we’re playing county down here, and and that’s deliberately so it’s number one on our list. And it’s a Linux course, you’re gonna get all these the slopes. But if I practice this at home, now if I was fortunate enough to be able to afford one of these to get to have at home, yeah, right. Say if that was a possibility and you were doing it and you were practicing it, when you actually get to the course, you’re only really introducing one or two variables, then, aren’t you? You’re actually introducing quality of lie and then the weather, yeah, and that’s it. And that’s always gonna be there. That’s not something you can ever really replicate. But that you can you can suddenly deal with that a lot better than all of this suddenly going on, and even like because you know, I’ve stood here on a course that’s gonna cost me 500 pounds to play, looking forward to it, but then I send it out wide a little bit, and then you’re like, oh, right, what do I need to do? You’re not thinking about your golf shot, you’re just thinking like, what do I need to do? Where’s this? What’s that? You know, yeah, yeah. Well that kind of.

Will: 17:55

You’re trying to think about like trying to get the most out of it. Like I pay £500 to be here, I want to embrace the moment, I want to feel good, I want to, I don’t want to feel like I’m questioning myself, questioning my swing. You want to be like in the moment.

Craig: 18:09

Yeah.

Will: 18:10

If you can play in the moment, and you just enjoy your golf a bit more then, right? Lovely.

Nish: 18:17

At this moment in time, my thoughts are turning to how I get one of these in the car.

Will: 18:24

Because this is friggin’ incredible. I love that you’re gonna go and collect a ball rather than just pick one on. I know, I know.

Nish: 18:32

I’m sorry. I feel like everyone has to try this at some point because I think this is a real what’s the word I’m gonna use now. Doesn’t it? I mean, it obviously has blown my mind clearly, but like it’s just, you know, it really is. Because you would be stood here just like, right, okay, well, my weight is shoving me down that way, and that’s gonna then bring my club. I could skull it somewhere, you know. I’ve kind of really got to think of, I’ve got to get my weight forward, I’ve got to think about my contact here. Whereas if it’s a flat one, my contact is almost guaranteed, isn’t it? I don’t have to keep it. But it’s because everything’s neutral, isn’t it? Yeah, don’t have to keep the weight forward. So the the technique of playing with these is like say is it just getting ingrained, you’re just doing it all the time.

Craig: 19:17

Way over.

Nish: 19:18

You’re not just you are doing all proper on-course decision making with this.

Will: 19:21

Yeah, this is a thing, because it you’re in this is what psychological safety is all about. People, it’s a new term which has come into not only just the workplace but how we practice and how we put both athletes in where they are. So, this is something which came about because of everything which happened at Skype Sky Cyclic. So, what environment are we creating? The beautiful thing which you’ve got here is that this is your environment, you’re in charge of this environment. Yeah. If you want to go and play a different course, you can click on this computer here and go and play something different. But what we’ve got here is a a place where you can be comfortable, where you can develop confidence, where you know, if you do have a bad shot, you’ve got an opportunity to reflect on it, and if you really want to, and what we will do, jump back to that shot again in a different game mode and go practice it. Yeah. In your own time, in your own space. Not rushed by anyone on the course, not rushed by the people which you’re playing with, if they’re having a bad round there, or or you’ve got people behind you, or you’re trying to keep up with a group in front, for example. Um, but it’s giving you a chance where you can really just become aware of the golf course, what it does with you and how you adapt to it, but also then how many different ways you can start solving problems out there as well.

Nish: 20:26

Yeah. Do you know? I think that there’s there’s a further thing, as you were saying that, I think there’s another thing that comes into play here, and that is like if I mess that shot up, I’m not thinking about I’ll send it over to the other team and I’ve got to go and apologize to somebody, or I’ve got to go now get my scuba diving gear and I’ve got to go and fish it out of the sea or whatever. The fear isn’t there, is it? So you you will experiment a little bit more, but you’re I was purely thinking about what shot do I want to actually play, not yeah, like, oh, somebody’s watching, like my playing partner, Chris, he’s watching, and if I mess this, is he gonna laugh at me if I do you’re in your own little safe space, like you said, yeah, and the fear has disappeared, and you just can concentrate on executing. Yeah, the burning question for everybody would be what’s what’s been and I don’t mean it to sound no no horrible to you guys or whatever, but like, why hasn’t this happened before? Or sooner?

Will: 21:23

So we’ve been around for 30 well, realistically about 13 years. So I did my like we spoke on our last podcast, I did my master’s research on the first ever green stage, which was made out of wood, out of cardiac, made by my dad, you know. Um so in terms of a product which is just replicating the experience of a golf course or stuff like that, it’s I mean it’s come a long way as a product for it to be digital enough to interact with the digital age of this, but also you know, the way which we coach this game is it’s so geared around Fix, but also like you can’t go out onto the golf course and practice. You can’t go out and go and have a lesson on the course because you’ve got a group behind you, you’re worrying about where you can drop balls, you’re worried about putting damage on the course, sewing other people up. Because ultimately, learning happens out there. Like the environment isn’t in the brain. We can’t just hold the whole world in our brain. Like we’re experiencing the environment, our brain is in the environment. Like ultimately, what you’ll find today, and what you’re already finding, is that you’re coaching yourself.

Craig: 22:27

Yeah.

Will: 22:28

It’s a it’s a really hard game to play. Yeah. And if we can make golf more in practice, more realistic, more representative of what you’re going to experience on the golf course, you’re not going to go, right, I’ve got confident with my driver, or I’ve got confident with my 7-9 because I’ve done a load on the range in this impoverished environment, this sterile flat environment. And then you go on the course, you’ve got this, that you’ve got to play up a hill and it’s got to drop short. All these decisions are not happening in practice. And because they’re not happening in practice, they fall apart when you go on the course. Yeah. So confidence falls apart. So the person who’s gone and borrowed a set of clubs off of mate, they’ve hit a few balls on the range, got confident, and when stepped on the course, they’ve hated it, they’ve fallen out of love with it. Yeah. They’re spending money to go and be in the rain for four hours rather than being in a challenging environment with a friends and having a bit of competition and solving amazing problems. Yeah. You know, the whole switch up changes. So the reason why it hasn’t is because the whole mental shift of where golf’s been to where it’s going now is totally different. Yeah. Like in the past it’s always been driven from the top down. And what we’re starting to see now, particularly after COVID, it’s been driven from the bottom up. Like the communities within golf are becoming the biggest driving power. You’re seeing people who were not good at golf becoming the stars of golf.

Nish: 23:47

If I flip that around then as well, so I asked you a bit cheekily why it hasn’t happened yet. Equally, what’s changed that suddenly enable that?

Will: 23:57

More people realising what’s missing. I think it’s taken a while for people to realize we we were early as a company, really early. And that was only mainly because of the person behind the brand and how they thought about golf and how they thought about learning. And also that it’s expensive to do what we do. People aren’t going to take a punt on something because they think it’s a good idea. But also, for us, we knew that we always had a theoretical underpinning of what we did. So what’s called ecological dynamics, it’s a full-blown theory of how you learn as a human being underpins everything which is designed around these products and how that experience is then integrated with Trackman right now. So it’s about creating realism, the word which you use, it’s about making sure what we call the constraints, the environment, the task, and the performer are constantly adapting. Yeah. Because that’s what we experienced on the golf course. So why it hasn’t happened, you know, it’s the commercial culture of what golf has always been the quick fix thing. I suppose the technology hasn’t allowed it quite yet, has it? Technology, you know, even now, like we’re iterating our system so it’s twice as fast. It can move quicker, not only quicker, but to different gradients in different ways. Yeah, it can integrate from the digital tech stack with different things from APIs with launch monitors, but also where we want to go in the future is the wearables which you have on the golf course. Yeah, okay. So you go and play county down, and then it goes, right, these are the shots, and this is where you hit them. So recreate all of that and recreate it in here, draw that data from there into this. So if you look what Trackman’s already doing with upgame, they’re doing the same thing, but they’re doing it in a sim, and it’s still so but what we want to do is then pull that data from upgame into Trackman and then into us. So let’s go and play that course, or let’s go and recreate the experiences which you have on that golf course. So instead of just going, oh, from this distance, 100 to 120 yards is where your weaknesses are. Let’s go and alright, so let’s go on that and let’s understand. Are they from this type of slope or that type of slope? Is it when the pin’s close, or is it when the you’ve got a lot of green to work with? Sometimes people bottle it when they’ve got a lot of green to work with.

Nish: 26:08

Right. You know what I mean?

Will: 26:09

So it changes your perception. So let’s put them in that. That’s interesting. Is that right then? Is that a a thing? A lot of times people will still just go, right, it’s 85 yards for the pin. And you’re like, Well, how much green have you got? And you’ve got, well, I’ve got 20 yards of green. So people will go, oh, um, maybe I should use a green, and then they fluff a chip, or yeah, okay. Or they’ll just go, Well, I’ve got 85 yards to play with, I’m just gonna try and hit 85 yards, not knowing that it’s three yards past the pin, or not embracing that it’s three yards past the pin. Yeah, yeah. So they’ll just look at the number, and that number is because they practice in that way.

Craig: 26:39

Yeah.

Will: 26:40

So oh, it’s an eight, I’m gonna practice a 60 yard shot, a 70 yard shot, 80, 90, 100. And you see it in the launch monitors, like, let’s go on the drive range, let’s go and practice a shot, 150 yard shot. Mate, not even par threes are on the number. No, they’re not on the number, yeah, yeah. Power fours aren’t on the number, par threes aren’t the number, par fives aren’t on the number. When you hit this next shot, it’s not gonna be Bob on the number.

Craig: 27:01

Yeah.

Will: 27:02

But why are we practicing these things? It’s because we sort of like there’s a psychology behind us where we’ve we’re framed around this whole number bias, yeah, and everyone’s got to be in that certain bracket. So, what is a 49? What’s 149 yards? What does that feel like?

Nish: 27:16

Yeah, yeah.

Will: 27:17

What does it feel like when you’re actually on the course and it’s on a slope and you’re uphill? Well, also, you how often are you finding a green that’s absolutely dead level with your T-box?

Nish: 27:26

It’s there’s always something. Yeah.

Will: 27:27

So even T-boxes, like you need a a golf course, needs 2% gradient for it to drain. Yeah, so that’s yeah, nothing. So you know that every T-box, well, everyone, every human being knows that every T-box isn’t flat. Yeah. Like, unless you’re playing beautiful, beautiful golf courses where it’s got amazing under T and it’s a raised T and incredible drainage. Yeah, yeah. But the the They’ve always got a little bit of a they’ve always got a crown in them. So you you can teep on the right hand side and get a fade, or you can tip on the left side and five.

Nish: 27:57

I teep on the left side, that’s that’s where my normal team position is. So you do get that, you get some vastly different position to or view of the whole or whatever.

Will: 28:07

Exactly. But I mean for me, the future of golf is to make it more real, uh, to close the gap between practice and play. Um and give it so that people were we were hiding learning in a game right now.

Nish: 28:20

Yeah, yeah.

Will: 28:21

So much learning has just happened in the forest.

Nish: 28:23

Gamification is a very legitimate way of people learning, isn’t it? You know, it’s a huge, huge thing, yeah.

Will: 28:28

But if we can do that and people fall in love with the game by playing games but actually learn as a hidden test of it.

Nish: 28:34

I mean, this is your Formula One team simulator that they have for drivers practicing the circuit before they get there.

Will: 28:42

This is what this is. Exactly. Jacob Monk, who’s the head of product at uh trackman for indoor golf, he says, he put it perfectly, he says, we’re moving from 2D to 3D.

Craig: 28:52

Yeah, yeah.

Will: 28:53

And that’s exactly what it is. Yeah. Um, I mean, 4D is when you start getting fans out and everything like that. But somebody stood over there with a water gun just This is great fun. But it’s great to hear people like that now embracing like how we’ve always seen it.

Craig: 29:10

Yeah.

Will: 29:11

Um, and not just be we’re the most accurate. What we should be thinking is more opportunities for us to make this better, yeah, more enjoyable and better experienced for people to all come together through this amazing sport. There’s not many sports you can play from three to 103. Yeah, and by playing it, you’re actually gonna feel healthier, happier, you’re gonna spend more time outside, you’re gonna spend more time with your friends.

Craig: 29:32

Yeah.

Will: 29:33

Like, no, it’s great.

Nish: 29:35

I mean, I think you know I said it’s it’s just it it when we first met, and we’re getting on to a year ago now. Um, you know, that ethos of look, I mean I’m here to make you as a golfer to make things better for you. Yeah, that’s why that’s what gets me up in the morning to come. And this is just the next step in that, isn’t it? 100%. You know, to but it’s underpinned by yes, it’s about it needs to get better because that’s making it make you better. So even going on, we’ve got we’ve got swing stage two coming along, which is gonna do it quicker, yeah, because then you know you’re not waiting around for it. Well, whatever it is, you know, it’s just like let’s make that take all the barriers away. You concentrate on golf, yeah, concentrate on getting better and improving your experience.

Will: 30:16

And then it’s about reducing the barriers to entry and making it more accessible for people, making it cheaper, you know. Um, so that it doesn’t become something which is like only in the elite facilities, yeah. Or only in certain golf facilit indoor golf centres, it becomes something which, you know, if I’m honest, you could go to your local golf club and you can go, right, we want to put if oh we oh we’re thinking about putting a sim in. Well, put one of these in with Trapman, put it with Trapman I.O. a swing stage and your simbe, you know, it’s gonna cost you about 50 grand. But if everyone, say if you’ve got 400 members and you just go, Well, everyone just put 100 quid in for the next two years, yeah, it’s paid for. Yeah. You know, basically paid for. Yeah. You crowdfund these things and have so much better experience. Yeah. But also think about what you can rent it out and it’s gonna pay for itself in the two years which you can.

Nish: 31:08

You should be known for having it in your area and people are gonna come and people probably join as a result of it to get access to the to the actual sim. Yeah. Right, I think I’m just gonna hit a trusty seven. And I think my aim is to try and drop it sort of there ish, I think. Yeah. So I’m in rough. So I’m gonna go a little bit. In fact, I’m gonna go at the flag because the ball should naturally come round a bit. Yeah, I love it.

Will: 31:35

A lot of sway front left of the green. If I was gonna draw like red, amber, green in terms of spaces to leave. It’s a safe zone, isn’t it? Yeah, it’s a safe zone, man.

Nish: 31:42

Yeah, so at the flag on this ridiculous slope. I mean, that is significantly above my feet there. But it’s a it’s a lie that you would have very frequently on a golf course. Yeah. Right, so I’m in the sand. Mine arch nemesis. So it’s just a sand shot here.

Will: 32:04

That’s it. 50 yards. Oh, hit the edge of the bunker.

Nish: 32:09

Of course I did. This is really realistic, you know. That’s exactly what would happen. Is this what happened at Carnoosti? This is what happened at Carnousti. Oh, you’ve seen. Oh I’m never gonna escape that.

Will: 32:22

Yeah. But it’s then also like let’s look at your tendencies. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Let’s look at right, off a draw slope, you play this sort of shot. Everyone says, Oh, off a ball above, it’s a draw. But is that actually gonna happen? But also, what’s the what’s the distance change?

Nish: 32:38

So what you’ll find if we’re your your uh mechanic your swing mechanics might suddenly subconsciously change as well under some percent.

Will: 32:45

So imagine if you were you were running on grass and then you ran onto concrete, your running style is gonna change. If then you ran onto gravel, it’s gonna change again. Yeah, if you ran into ice, it’s gonna change again. You change naturally based on how you interact with the environment.

Nish: 32:58

Because it is interesting you say that. I I I do I have found previously, and it’s it’s happened quite a lot when the whole like, oh, you’re told, right, ball above your feet, you know, and it’s gonna naturally like it doesn’t always nope. In fact, it very very rarely happens. If it happens, I’m just like, oh, okay, that’s exactly what it’s supposed to do. But I don’t know, maybe there is something I’m doing in my head to like counter that or yeah, throwing the hands at it.

Will: 33:23

I don’t know what it what it is, but but this is the thing, because you’re doing it in isolation, yeah. What like one shot at a time, and you’re not getting enough feedback for you to actually understand what’s actually happening, you’re not developing the awareness, and through that you’re not developing the understanding of what’s happening. Yeah, but if you then if we took you onto those slopes, practice those slopes, and you’ve got your trap man day, and you can see, oh, actually, what’s happening with my club path? What’s happening with my face angle? Right. Actually, when I’m on those slopes, am I blocking it? Or am I naturally fading it and holding it off? Or actually, and also then there’s the extra layer is what changes in distance? So a downhill, like a ball below feet, people say, Oh, it’ll hit a fade. But if I said you hit a fade, you hit a fade longer or shorter? Shorter, usually. But if I put you on that sort of slope, oh on that slope, right. But then exactly. So what you’ll actually find is if I put you on that foot sort of slope, you’ll actually get onto the ball more, which means you’re putting more force into the golf ball, which means you’ll actually probably hit a further off a ball below feet than if it was ball above feet, which people say, oh, if you hit a draw, it goes further.

Nish: 34:32

It’s all just clicked, you know. It’s all just clicked, that bit where you said about we’re pigeonholing people into certain categories, and this is what should happen, yeah, versus no, this is what you actually do. And I remember we when we first had our chat a year ago, and you said you used a very similar analogy about running, and you’re like, stick a human being into something so you’ve got to just do it once, they’ll make the adjustment themselves subconsciously. But we’re saying to people, yeah, ball above your feet, choke down, the ball will naturally head out that but that’s assuming everything stays consistent, you haven’t changed anything. But if your body is naturally making a decision to go, oh, I am on that slope, so however you’re doing it, whatever it is, you might be leaving the club face open or whatever, you’ve you’ve adjusted for that. So you could aim straight because you’re you’re not going to get that movement.

Will: 35:25

100% left. So I know based on how I swing a golf club, that on a fade slope I basically hit it straight. Interesting. Because I’m a draw with a golf ball. Yeah, that’s your natural shape. It’s a natural shape of how I swing it, how I’ve sort of developed my swing, you know, over all the years. That’s amazing. So I just basically put unless it’s really severe, I play a straight shot. Or I’d have to, if I or what I do is what we’ll talk about here is can I use the slope to be able to create the shape?

Craig: 35:52

Yeah.

Will: 35:53

So I’ll purposely set myself up to embrace the slope. Yeah. Rather than trying to stay neutral to it.

Craig: 36:00

Yeah.

Will: 36:01

But that’s through awareness. That’s that’s through me playing golf for a long time and having access to this sort of technology and this technology.

Nish: 36:08

Yeah, yeah, that’s what’s giving you that understanding.

Will: 36:09

Let’s develop that awareness and that understanding that I can then go and commit that onto a golf course and go, right, let’s just play straight at the pin.

Nish: 36:15

But you do that on a golf course, and you’re doing like say you’re doing it once every so often. Let’s say in a round, you might do it three or four times where a ball’s above your feet and you’re aiming to the to the right, expecting it to come up, and you you send it outright. You might do that four times, but each time you’re doing it, in your head, you’re thinking, it’s supposed to have done that, so I must have played that shot poorly. Oh, right, I’m annoyed at myself now. But that bleeds into the next couple of shots, doesn’t it? Which can bleed into the next couple of holes, which then changes your perception of your golf. Whereas what you’re saying now is your natural play could be that off that you aim straight because it is gonna go straight. That’s just how you play it, because your body’s made those and your brain has made those adjustments. So when you go on a course, don’t think about aiming it to the right. Just go at the go at the target that you’re going for, and then that’ll you’re gonna end up where you’re going, and that feeds into the rest of your game positively.

Will: 37:08

100% it’s about being it’s about understanding who you are.

Nish: 37:11

Yeah, so so actually, and even your average recreational golfer would hugely benefit from learning about their game on this.

Will: 37:19

Yeah, for sure. It’s confidence in context.

Craig: 37:23

Yeah.

Will: 37:23

Because you’re developing that con competence on the course or on a realistic experience of the course.

Nish: 37:30

Yeah. It it truly is. You you you know this, and and people watching and listening will know this as well. But you know, it truly is a a game-changing mindset shift. This like it you’ve you have literally just gone from like I’m trying to do everything. I’d I mean, I suppose people like Scotty Scheffler have brought about more awareness of you know, swing your own swing and all this kind of stuff. And it’s like, yeah, what do you actually do on a course in certain conditions? That’s what you need to carry forward. So somebody could say to you, is like, oh, you’re you’re aiming a little bit a little bit right there, you need to be, you know, whichever way the slope is going.

Will: 38:06

So you just said a really good point. Like one of my mates, he aims so far right that if you didn’t play with him, no, there’s not even on a slope, but just generally aims far right, right? But what he does is how he swings a golf club, he hits just like a pull. But his perception of where he’s actually aiming, if you said to him, Where do you where do you think you’re aiming? And they’ll go, Well, I’m aiming, I’m aiming here. And I go, if I stood behind him and said, right, I’m just gonna get this is what how many people do. We get a golf club and I’m just gonna put it there. But if it then he goes like that, where’s the ball gonna go? Yeah, yeah, that’s there’s a difference between aiming and targeting.

Craig: 38:42

Yeah.

Will: 38:43

So this is all about developing awareness of you as a golfer. So you can go and enjoy it, so you can go and play your game.

Nish: 38:48

Yeah, understand your own game.

Will: 38:50

We’re not we’re not playing swing anymore, we’re playing golf.

Nish: 38:52

That’s a wonderful phrase, actually, Will. We’re not playing swing anymore, we’re playing golf. Do you know? I’m fascinated by I really am now fascinated by this because I’m now, while you’re talking, Will, you know, I’m thinking back to all the times I’ve been on, and I would probably say it’s that that ball above my feet lie, all the times I’ve aimed out right, and I’ve sent the ball outright, and it’s never come back in. You know, and I’m it’s so many times, and you just finish it, and you just go, but why? Why is the natural thing not happened with the ball that should invert commas happen? Like I feel like I’m having a eureka moment with that, and that is like, yeah, maybe my tendency is I’ve I’ve made that adjustment already, and I can you go a bit more towards the target, then there’s one change I’m gonna take in straight away. Boom, boom, how good is that? Wow, how good is that?

Will: 39:46

So cool on in what an hour? Yeah, I mean you really probably doing three or four. That’s us talking and stopping and starting.

Nish: 39:53

Yeah, if you so we’ve just done a playing lesson, haven’t we? Essentially, we’ve just been we’ve done a gun out on course and a playing lesson, yeah, but just in a set exactly hour, whatever, on and and and you can.

Will: 40:04

If we were going if we were going at a pace which wasn’t on a podcast and we weren’t worried about anything, and it was just me and you, we would have got them five holes done in maybe 15 minutes, 20 minutes, which means we could be jumping into revisiting different things a lot quicker. Yeah. You know, which means that then you’d be walking out not only in the revelation which you’ve had right now, but we could solve that problem and understand why. Yeah. So I can show you right, what’s your what’s your path? What is it doing on this slope?

Nish: 40:29

I reckon if you could get every golfer on this for 15 minutes, you’d you’d I would hazard a guess you’d be stacked with orders. Yeah. Because they’ll just go, I need one. Like it just this has to happen. Or they’ll be petitioning clubs to get it, or whatever it is. Because the value you’re getting out of this is almost untold, isn’t it? You know, what what what’s the price on knowing your game inside out so you can enjoy your golf better? So I’m sure you will agree that was absolutely fascinating content. We’ve brought you a world first that is this technology and this integration is still not brought to market. It was only launched at the PGA show a few weeks ago. In fact, I’m probably only thinking a couple of weeks ago, and it’s really making waves and ripples in the market, and it will totally change the way people will play and practice golf. Now, the next thing I’m gonna do at Zen Golf is have a putting lesson, and that’s in our next episode. So stay tuned for that. Hit subscribe, hit follow, press the little bell icon if you’re on YouTube so you don’t miss that. And talking of YouTube, we’re gonna have a more expanded version of this episode on YouTube, which will show you my full playing lesson. You’ll be able to see the actual shots that I played, you’ll be able to see in more detail the discussion I had with Will because it wasn’t just about the integration that they’ve pioneered and then they’ve brought to the bringing to market. It is also about how you’re going to use that to actually meaningfully improve your game. So until next time on the Top 100 in 10 Golf Podcast.