Inside Europe’s Ryder Cup Win with Tom Young

Nish: 0:03

Special episodes deserve special introductions, and this is a very, very special episode. I have got a guest on with me today who is gonna take us inside uh the European Ryder Cup win. He was there, he was part of it, and he was a very big part of it, and he’s been somebody that I’ve been trying to get on for a while. And rather amazingly, just last week he was on the Rick Shiels Golf Podcast. So he is a heavy hitter guest. But the reason I’m so excited is that because not only are we gonna be transported back to that magical weekend three months ago in New York and relive all those memories and the key moments, and we’re gonna get some wonderful insights about that. But our guest is gonna give us some insights that you’ll be able to use from within that Ryder Cup environment and strategies that you can use in your game if you’re playing today. It’s gonna be that simple, that effective, and that good. So strap yourselves in. This is an amazing, amazing episode of our podcast. I’d also like to give a little special shout out to Penwortham Golf Club. They hosted us for the day. Tom’s a member there, it’s a beautiful golf course and a beautiful golf club and a beautiful golf clubhouse. Uh, we were very, very thankful to them. I’m also thankful to Tom Dolan, uh, who is the professional over there. He was wonderful on the day. He allowed us use of their brand new indoor swing studio that they’ve got set up. They’ve got a couple of bays, top-of-the-range simulators, which is going to be great for their members. Uh, and uh, we were so grateful to be able to use that for our interview with Tom. So when you jump on the YouTube version of our podcast, you will notice we’re actually sat in one of the bays.

Tom Young: 1:55

But this isn’t done yet. And I was getting text messages from people at home, like, enjoy the champagne. You know, like that thing about being part of a team and that responsibility. For some reason, some people grow with it. Whistling straights was bad. And sometimes you do get that, don’t you? You get a team that’s really well prepared, they’re very good at what they do, they’re really well connected, they’ve got a sense of purpose, and it just clicks. I don’t know if Rory’s plan was to say, shut the F up and then hit it to three-foot.

Nish: 2:20

Bonus episode. Inside Europe’s Ryder Cup win. I’ll take you back to Sunday evening a few short months ago. I was gathering in the pub with Jim, who’s not here today, in sheer excitement, if I’m honest, and looking forward to a relatively stress-free night out. What happened over the next six hours was that I experienced the whole range of human emotions from excited expectation via shredded nerves and disbelief to utter joy and immense pride. As a European, on that evening of the 28th of September, we all probably went through the mill that night. But in the end, we prevailed and celebrated that really rare thing, an away Rider Cup win. Well, today we’re going to transport you back to the Ryder Cup and from Ryder Cups of years past, as I’m joined by a very special guest who was one of the people I sent a message to that night, sharing my pride and happiness at what had just happened. But before we carry on, whatever platform you’re on, please could you hit follow or subscribe? Our numbers have started to reflect the fact that you are doing that, but we are still looking at the back-end stats, and there’s definitely more followers we can get. So for that microsecond of your time, please just hit follow or subscribe. Now back to the episode. As I mentioned, I’m joined by a very special guest today, someone I’ve actually been trying to get on the podcast for a long time. His name’s Tom Young, and he’s a performance psychologist specializing in team dynamics and leadership. Now he’s provided psychological support at the absolute pinnacle of sport. So we’re talking about things like being part of the coaching team for an Olympic gold medalist, Keeley Hodgkinson. He was the head of psychology at Wigan Warriors when they had their amazing 2024 season. And probably most relevant to us, he has supported a very famous Ryder Cup golfer, somebody we’re all in love with at the minute, and that’s Tommy Fleetwood. And generally he’s been supporting the Ryder Cup team through the wins of 2018, 2023, and just back in September. He’s also worked with St Helens RFC, England Rugby League, the Belgian Football Federation, and Manchester United women. And he’s written a book which we’ve got over here as a lovely visual aid called The Making of a Leader, which is about lessons leaders in business can take from elite sport. I’m tired reading all that out. So welcome, Tom. Uh thank you for coming onto the podcast. Thanks for having me. Uh now take us back to that incredible Sunday in New York. We all went through all those emotions that I just described, but how was it being so close to the action?

Tom Young: 4:58

Um it was probably exactly how you felt watching it in the poor ball at home or anything like that. So if you go back to the the Sunday, I suppose specifically for me, I was to paint a picture. People think you sometimes kind of you’re on the course or you’re with a certain group, and that would be perfect if you were there when the when you kind of that winning moment happens. Yeah. In reality, as you know, the Ryder Cup is actually quite good to watch on TV. Yeah. So you want to have a whole idea of what’s happening, you know, what’s kind of um unfolding in different games, where the overall match is at. So I was actually in the gym watching it um with a load of coaches and physios, and at the Ryder Cup, there’s um there’s like a King Caddy called Julian who helps does all the kit and all that. So he was there, and the guy sorting all the all the kits out were in there. So we were kind of just pacing up and down, um, which I imagine is like that kind of nerves, and you’re kind of thinking, like, where’s this point coming from? And yeah, you kind of know the Americans at that point, like they’re all very good at golf still, so you know they’re gonna have a spell, you just don’t really want to have it on the Sunday when there’s so many points to play for, and there’s this thing, momentum starts to starts to shift. Yeah, so you’re starting to think, and you there is that panic, you’re basically just a fan at that point. Well, that’s how I felt, yeah. Um, and then obviously it turns when Shane hits that putt and the place just goes mad. Like, as in, like, just it’s just like a lot of kids celebrating, basically. That’s how it looked, yeah. And then we ran from there out to the 18th, and then obviously watched the rest of it come in. So I think when you’re there, obviously you feel that belonging, you feel like part of that group, but I’d say the range of emotions would be exactly the same as what everyone is feeling at feeling at home.

Chris: 6:36

Could you feel that kind of tension rising throughout the day? Like we would feel like like you say, where’s that point gonna come from? Was that was that kind of permeating through the group? Could you sense that that was the the kind of feeling amongst the the backroom staff kind of thing?

Tom Young: 6:47

I think maybe just when there was that what was it, like an hour or a couple of hours where it felt like oh though those first couple of matches that they kind of look like it could easily have been two half points and Fitzpatrick obviously, and you kind of think Aberg’s winning his point, you think we’re gonna have this done here. Um so at that point, you are just you you do feel that momentum because the crowd and everything’s getting up, they’ve got complete freedom in that they’ve got nothing to lose essentially. Um but you also have faith in the fact that you know these guys are probably gonna get this, gonna get this done. They’re they’re very good at golf, they’ve played amazing over the first two days, yeah. And you and you put the the kind of faith in them, obviously.

Chris: 7:26

Yeah, because I think that that kind of positive mentality that it felt like the Europeans kind of went into that rider cup with that that like you said, that kind of permeated through that whole weekend. And obviously, in the you know, in the in the four balls and the foursoms, they you know they were just head and shoulders above the Americans, but then even still when they needed it, they needed that little bit of grit to kind of push them over the line. Ultimately, they kind of had that in the bag, didn’t they?

Tom Young: 7:47

Well, that that’s it, it almost went too well. Do you know what I mean? Like, and I think they probably talked about that the night before, the kind of like this isn’t done yet. And I was getting text messages from people at home like enjoy the champagne, and this was before Sunday had even started. Yeah, so you know that that mentality can kind of creep in like to the fans, they think, Oh, this is done. Yeah, and you know that that’s gonna free the opposition up anyway, yeah. So they’re probably thinking the same thing. Um, so it’s probably just guarding against that. But it’s funny you say like the grit and the persistence because people talk about oh, everything’s gone great. There will be times where you’re under the gun, yeah, and you’ve got to be able to kind of manage yourself through that, yeah. Um, and I think the guys did that brilliantly. Absolutely, yeah.

Nish: 8:28

I I I was a bit worried for the structural integrity of that green when Shane Larry was jumping up and down, to be perfectly honest with you. Then he when he’s grabbing his session’s like, my god, he’s having a heart attack on on national TV here, like what’s going on? But I mean, just the unbridled joy that was there, and then it’s like a kid celebrating, one of the things that’s a lot of people. You listen to them, and and here’s the thing that you know we we’ve had a chat pre-episode today, yeah, and we’re talking about what sort of things we’re gonna potentially talk about, but we were sort of skirting a little bit around this camaraderie that the European team have got in bucket loads and how different it out from the outside world, how different it looks. Like is that something that is palpable when you’re there, or is that actually still a little bit more of a myth, do you think?

Chris: 9:18

And can I can I just tag something onto that, I think, as well, because something I wanted to ask you in terms of compare that to the US team as well, because I think a lot is talked about that kind of individualism versus collectivism of the of the Europeans. Yeah, is that something that’s genuinely palpable throughout those teams, or is that something that’s just kind of a media, a bit of media hype?

Tom Young: 9:36

There is a lot, like with the Ryder Cup, I mean there’s that book, isn’t it? The captain’s myth, I think it’s called. So, as in the narrative of a Ryder Cup and the the culture and the leadership side of things can almost take on a life of their of its own because yeah, it’s one outcome essentially. Um, and you’ve got to be wary of that. But I can only really speak from the European point of view, yeah. Of course, yeah, um, and that collectiveness, especially over the last couple of years, when you’ve got that consistency, and obviously I’ve been involved since 2018. Um, but this group now, it definitely feels like that, and you can kind of see that maybe a lot of a good group of them will be, you know, like have an interest in team sports as well, perhaps. Yeah, so like yes, you end up being a golfer, but you enjoy rugby, you enjoy football. Yeah, and have probably played those things at school on the street. Yeah, exactly. So you can kind of and I mean McIntyre plays Shinty, doesn’t he? That that crazy sport in in Scotland that looks looks mega to be fair. I think he used to get in trouble because he’d go back and play that when he should be playing golf, but like that team spirit, yeah. If you think about it, strip it back to just human beings, we want to be part of something that is bigger than ourselves, yeah, you know, in order to survive going back years and years. So actually, when you get the opportunity to do that as an individual sports person, and there is a real special feeling to it, and there’s a lot of people buying into it, then then it is you know, it is very, very special.

Chris: 10:58

So, would you would you kind of almost argue then that on a human level, essentially it’s the same for both teams? Because they’re they’re both kind of want to buy into that that kind of collective group, you know, mentality.

Tom Young: 11:07

I think there’s that consistency though, isn’t it? It’s like, okay, what what is this group for? What’s the purpose? What like what brings us together? And that’s probably really strong. With like, so for instance, the Ryder Cup Team Europe, they do so much. You’ll have seen when Luke did his behind the scenes tour of the locker room, right? So all the messaging, the the stuff on Sevi, yeah, you know, that real kind of emotion that’s around it, and also probably the family feel, I think, of like the DP, like the European tour. Yeah, so you saw it at the weekend just just gone in terms of like the culmination of that season. You’ve got players coming back, yeah. They they play on the PGA tour, but they also come back and support those events, and then when one wins and one loses, they’re genuinely kind of yes, they’re gutted, but they’re also happy for their for their kind of colleague. So you see their journeys. I do think there’s a family feel to that tour as well. Um, but they just do it so well, the backroom staff with Team Europe, in terms of, like I said, the messaging, the environment just throughout, spending time together, and maybe there’s a smaller pool of players. I don’t know that you have that kind of tightness that kind of lends itself to that as well. But you’ve got history, haven’t you? So this belonging, um you’re part of history, you’re part of that team Europe for this one match, two match, three matches, yeah. But you track it all the way back through history, and you’re just like this is just your moment, and there’s a lot more to come after, and there’s been a lot more that’s come before, yeah. So I just think they have a real sense of that kind of journey that they’re part of, yeah.

Chris: 12:30

And that kind of that messaging that was kind of part of what your role was ultimately in that in that team, wasn’t it? What sort of things do you tap into to kind of pick out what that messaging might look like just for being you know, a generic kind of yeah?

Tom Young: 12:42

I think I think to be fair, it’s it’s probably not my role within that environment, um, but it’s something that they do very well. So um I think Luke as a leader is very consistent in his in his messaging. Yeah. Um, so they did a lot around New York and the role of I think he spoke about this in his in his welcome speech or in the opening ceremony about the role of Europeans in the creation of New York. You know, so it’s it’s not just like a random thing that he’s he’s thought about, it’s something he’s plotted and and reflected on like a year before, and he’s built it into all of his messaging as he goes through.

Nish: 13:17

It was potentially one of the best speeches I’ve perhaps ever heard. There were so many subtle things that he said in there that were like like that, yeah. Like that lineage, like European lineage, like kind of European in New York, you know. And then it was a bit like we’re gonna win you over by being good, and that’s how we’re gonna do it. Yeah, and then but then he was also like, but we’re here to win.

Tom Young: 13:42

Yeah.

Nish: 13:43

So it wasn’t like we’re not just we’re not making numbers up, you know, and and we’re not putting ourselves up as favourites or whatever, but you know, we’ve come here to win this trophy.

Tom Young: 13:50

Yeah, they kind of embraced the underdog tag, yeah.

Nish: 13:53

And we’re gonna win your hearts and minds. Yeah, and obviously he delivered it in such a better way than that. You can’t say this, Tom. Of course, I don’t expect you to, but so much better than Keegan Bradley just looked like he was reading off auto Q and Luke Donald’s just professional. He just looked like he was you could see he was reading it on second, third view. You could see he’s reading it, but it’s just the way he he’s just smooth. I think he’s such a consummate professional.

Tom Young: 14:15

That’s a good word, that is a good word for him, I would say. I mean, like his message with the they had because it was an away match, and are you gonna be part of this special group of players that have won away from home in a rider cup? And they had in the warm-up, like the practice days, they had kit on that reflected the colour of the kit when they won those events. Yeah, you know, so just little things like that. The guys spot that and they see the attention that’s gone into it, the players and the caddies in this special week, but it’s also they’re not just doing it for the sake of it, it’s supporting all the messaging and the culture that they’ve built over an over a number of years, you know. Yeah, attention to detail, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nish: 14:52

Okay, I’m so I’m I’m gonna just I’m gonna rewind a little bit, Tom. So I I I I probably it’s probably a bit of a bowful than how I described what you do, and everybody was going like, all right, what Tom does does Tom actually look like? What does that actually look like? I I think it’s worth like I know what you do, but I think it’s really worth from from your ways, like in that environment. So I’d say this is Rider Cup specific, but I’m gonna bring up and I brought up all those teams that you’ve worked with in the past. You know, what what role do you provide for them and what support are you giving them?

Tom Young: 15:20

Yeah, um, it can vary depending on the environment that you’re in. Um essentially, I’m looking at the human side of performance. So you mentioned team dynamics, leadership. If you think about it, we’re all people just trying to perform. So I’ll work with organizations and teams, whether that’s sport or kind of businesses or you know, people in education, it’s just people really to me. Um, and it’s kind of helping people get out of their own way, to put it simply, like understanding what might be holding them back, understanding the makeup of a team and how you might communicate better with somebody, um, looking at the culture of an organization and what you want to keep and what you want to change. Yeah, um, so it’s really just that kind of the human side of performance. So you might go into so for the Ryder Cup, for instance, my role is very clear in that. So I am not the sports psychologist for every player on that team. I am my background is sports psychology, but in this environment, I’m looking at team dynamics. So, how do you manage different personalities? If you put two players together, what are you gonna get? Um, because within that role, you’re working with a captain over the years, different captains, who is an individual sports person, yeah. Um, who now is given this role as a captain, and you’re expected just to lead a load of people that you’re normally playing against, and you’ve got to do that in a way where you’re authentic because they’ll spot if you’re not, but also you’ve got to adapt a little bit, yeah. Um, you know, because they are all playing each week for themselves, essentially, and suddenly you you’re now playing for this bigger purpose, and as we know, it’s not for money. Um, so in that which team you’re on, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, well for us. Um, so in that role, it’s very specific, it’s around helping that captain just understand the people in that team, and that sits alongside like the data that Eduardo Molinari does and the player’s perspective, obviously, Luke’s instincts as a leader as well. Whereas you might go into a rugby team and you’re kind of like embedded week by week, you’re in the rhythm of a season, and you might be working with an individual about overthinking or regaining composure during a match, or how you communicate a certain message in a team meeting. So that’s very, very different. Or you could work individually with somebody where it’s it’s obviously more kind of um private and they’ve come to you independently, yeah, understanding what might be holding them back. And sometimes you just get someone who wants to improve. It’s not always there’s a problem, yeah, like and I need to solve it. Sometimes it’s someone goes, Yeah, I’m alright at this stuff, but I think I could be better.

Nish: 17:46

Well, you’re dealing in that top getting that extra 1% out, which could be the difference between like we took Keely Hodgkinson, for instance, it could be the difference between gold and silver, and it’s that one little bit, I’m slightly happier than I was before. Yeah, now I can go and do it.

Tom Young: 17:59

We all do it, so we’re at a golf club now, like everyone playing today will be doing some form of psychology. Some people will be better than others, but the way that we think drives how we behave and perform. So we’re all doing it, and it’s like when you know when people say, Oh, you say your voice in your head, and someone goes, I don’t have a voice in my head. It’s like that is your voice in your head, telling you that you don’t it’s not there. So it’s kind of mastering mastering that in a voice, really. Yeah, so yeah, it can be a whole collection of things, but it’s always around the people. So I’m not an expert in someone can’t argue any of these sports, but sometimes that can help as well because you’re not going in looking at somebody’s swing or how they might pass a rugby ball or a tackle technique or any of this stuff, you’re just looking at them as a human first, yeah, and then them as an athlete. So um that’s kind of where I I try and approach it from.

Chris: 18:45

And in terms of in terms of the application of what you do, would you say it’s pretty much the same application to go and talk to Tommy Fleetwood as it is to go and speak to a CEO of a business? Is it is it pretty much the same skills that you’re applying, or is it a very different kind of um it’s quite a good question because you obviously reflect on it and sometimes you think, have I added value there?

Tom Young: 19:05

Or like you know, and sometimes it’s just asking good questions.

Chris: 19:08

Yeah.

Tom Young: 19:08

So sometimes you can go with a plan and you’re gonna deliver something. Obviously, if it’s an individual, you never quite know where they’re gonna take it. Like I’ve had sessions before where someone just talks to you, yeah, and you’re kind of going, okay, whereas your urge is to try and help somebody, so sometimes you’ve got to try and sit win in that in the moment. But I’d say it’s the same skills, like you’ve got to build trust, you’ve got to listen well, you’ve got to ask good questions, and then you’ve got also got to know when to push those people and challenge and push back a little bit. Yeah, and I think they’re skills that you build as you go through it, to be honest. You have this theoretical knowledge, but if you can’t apply it and you can’t connect with people, yeah, then you know, yeah, you may as well stay at uni. And yeah, yeah.

Chris: 19:47

Um it’s a good point. Um, but yeah, this is from kind of the outside looking in, but just uh and maybe a bit of my own experience in my my kind of my kind of working career and stuff. But I think if you look at some of those high profile managers like Luke Donald, people like Southgate, you probably aren’t those traditional kind of macho uh dictate dictatorial kind of um characters. Is that something that you see as changing both in sports and in in business as well? Is that is that a mindset that’s changing for people what their expectations of a leader are?

Tom Young: 20:16

Yeah, I think so. And and I think people have realized that there’s no specific way, like one way of doing it. I think we want to take shortcuts, don’t we? So it’d be really neat and tidy if there was like one type of leadership and one leadership profile. So in the past, probably that kind of charismatic leader type. So you’re really assertive and you’re really kind of persuasive, you have these social skills where you can kind of get people to do stuff, yeah. But that doesn’t really last. It might help for like a quick buzz. But if also if that’s not you, like like I said before, people spot it.

Chris: 20:48

Yeah.

Tom Young: 20:48

So I I can’t the what the ones that kind of come to mind sometimes, you can compare Jurgen Klopp, yeah, right, who might be a little bit more of that charismatic leader, right, with Carlo Mancelotti, who has a book literally called Quiet Leadership.

Chris: 21:02

Yeah.

Tom Young: 21:03

So introvert, extrovert, both have got a lot of trophies. Yeah. So there’s all these examples where you could kind of go, right, what’s Serena Wiegman like, or what’s Luke Donald like? And to me, I I do think there’s no there’s no like personality type for it. There will be traits, like it might be detail, it might be resilience, like you mentioned before.

Chris: 21:22

Yeah.

Tom Young: 21:22

Um, like with Luke, for instance, just to talk a little bit about him from my perspective, like you said before, Nish, like with his speech, it’s very what word did you use? Smooth. Smooth, yeah. So it’s like it’s a it’s a good way to describe him because he was a vice captain for a couple of matches before.

Chris: 21:39

Yeah.

Tom Young: 21:40

And what what I was aware of is just how he will take things away, he will apply them if he thinks they’re valid. Yeah. So he will you gotta give him time to think things through. And he has this patience and a thoroughness and a professionalism and like a calming side to him. And I think that side also enables him to build really good relationships with people, so build trust. So it’s a people focus, but it’s not let me talk to you, yeah, it’s how can I help you? So it’s almost like a coaching mentality. What how do I understand you and how can we help you get out of your own way in order to perform? Yeah, but then people hear that and go, Oh, he sounds like a really nice guy, and yeah, but I’ve seen him make decisions like that, yeah, like on the ground, if something needs sorting. Yeah, yeah. And also you don’t get to world number one and win all those tournaments and all that ride a cup success as a player and as captain without having that grit and that toughness. So I think lead it’s about for leaders, it’s about having that like starting point, being authentic, and then being able to flex within that. So not being everything to everyone, yeah, but knowing when I might need to adapt my style. Yeah, so I do I do think it’s it’s changing, Chris. Like, and I think people are becoming more and more aware of it. So I’ll work with the leader sometimes, and it might be they need to become more empathic because they are quite dominant or they’ll they’re quite good at telling people what to do, and suddenly it’s like, well, I’ve got to build relationships with this new new generation that are coming through, yeah. And telling them to be in the office five days a week isn’t gonna work because they’ll just leave and do something else. See who’s gonna change there, you know. Probably the leader has to change, yeah. So I do think it’s evolving, yeah. People are realizing there’s no there’s no set way of of doing it.

Nish: 23:21

Yeah, no, I know how to force you to do it because you didn’t want to plug it, but is this the kind of stuff you’re covering in your in your book? Yes, yes, wonderful. That’s I thought I thought you know it has been out five years, Nish.

Tom Young: 23:32

So I’m sure there’s a few still knocking about somewhere. I don’t get a chance to read magazines these days, mate.

Nish: 23:37

The kids are keeping me too busy with that. Um somebody bought me a book the other day, and I was like, what’s this? Yeah, what are we gonna do with that? It’s weird, it’s it’s Lou Roll or something like that.

Tom Young: 23:46

I did spend the first like few months after it came out in Preston Waterstones just like shifting it, shifting it to head height for people, you know, and moving Elon Musk to the side and putting Tom Younger in like Mark or its best. Oh, it’s in the bestsellers list again. Like, oh why is that why is that in the kids’ book?

Nish: 24:04

Yeah, oh no, I love it. Um now I mentioned at the intro, Jim is a big Saints fan, I’m a big Wigan fan. I say big, I’m a Wigan fan. And umce. I’m good at I drove through Wigan once, looked at the stadium, and I’m good to Jim’s not here because this would be a segment that I know he’d love. Because there was a glorious season in 2024 for Wigan. Now again, you were head of psychology for that snapshot in time, yeah, that was just this written in their history now. Yeah. Like how how does it feel to be part of that? Forget all the what you did, like, but how does it feel to be part of that? Like when you wake up in the morning, like what does that feel like?

Tom Young: 24:44

Um I suppose you’re you’re in it in that you’re you’re what’s great, if you strip it back, what’s great about rugby league for me is kind of the fundamentally the people like I’ve the all blacks thing about no dickheads I across they might argue, but like Saints England Wigan. Yeah, but I don’t think I I haven’t met with someone that I would class as a dickhead.

Chris: 25:05

Yeah, yeah.

Tom Young: 25:05

Um so you’re typically getting a lot of good people who are very kind of humble but also very open to stuff. Now I’ve obviously had the fortune or honour or whatever of being part of two very successful clubs historically, so you you’re at the top of the game. I know a few people might argue with that after this season, but I think what they do really well is that sense of connection, yeah. Like a little bit like we’re talking about with Team Europe, but they have the the luxury of doing it week by week and building a season and you almost theming different weeks and things like that. So it feels great because as a psychologist, I have I kind of work on my own a lot, you work with different people. So to get the chance to be with a group, and I mean in reality, they’re doing it all, aren’t you? You’re just a small, a small part of it, but you just get that, like I said, belonging before you you get that feeling of connection with it, um, and that’s kind of what you take away. Like I didn’t grow up as a rugby league fan. I used to watch Wigan, like my dad worked in Wigan, so they were the team I would kind of follow when they were on TV. But I I grew up playing rugby union like half an hour up the road in in Preston, so you’re not a fan of that, you become a fan of the people. So people go, Oh, you’ve moved from Saints to Wigan. Obviously, that’s a big thing, it’s like moving from Liverpool to Everton or United to City, but it’s the people that you connect with. Yeah, it’s not to me, it’s the badge is almost inconvenient. Yeah, saying it’s not the badge sounds a little bit dismissive, but what I mean is you it’s surprising how quickly when you make that move, you’re going, Well, I’m Wigan now because I I think a lot of him, and I really like him, and I trust him, and I love what he’s doing, and you’re like, Alright, okay, that that that happened a lot quicker than maybe it should have done. Yeah, yeah.

Nish: 26:46

Um rugby league family, isn’t it?

Tom Young: 26:48

And that’s yeah, and they’ll have they’ll have matches and they’ll like beat each other up and smash each other, and then they’re together with England, and there is that trust and respect as well. Like, yeah, so yeah, it’s a it’s a it’s a pretty it’s a it’s a it’s a really cool sport to have to have been part of, definitely. Yeah.

Chris: 27:02

And do you think so you you know like Nish mentioned, you’ve been part of you know some incredible sporting teams and and some incredible sporting leaders? Do you think you’ve kind of taken little bits from each of one of those leaders and kind of built that into your kind of um pool of skill sets and and leadership uh styles and that kind of stuff?

Tom Young: 27:20

I think so, because it’s funny when you’re writing a book on leadership, but you actually work on your own. Yeah. So you know, you’re like, I kind of feel like I’m you know, I’m not sure I’m but the best.

Chris: 27:29

Can you apply can you apply what you teach to other people to yourself, or is that more difficult?

Tom Young: 27:33

Um I think it’s difficult in the way that we all have like our brains all like to work in like shortcuts and autopilot. So you still have to remind yourself of this stuff, but you can watch a Luke Donald, and if you’re working with someone like that and you don’t take something from it, then you’re a bit daft. Yeah, um, you’ve got to kind of absorb that. So it might be give yourself a bit of time to think about something, it might be planning something in good time. That’s the one thing I felt with Luke, it all felt like it was done with a lot of like time available, yeah. Um thought through. Hey, there you go. And then, but with so our head coach at Wigan, Matt, Matt Pete, he’s I think he’s a very unique coach in that he is we talked about being able to flex, but I think he can flex very naturally. So I’ve seen him be really vulnerable and share stuff with the group that’s quite emotional. I’ve seen him mess about like you wouldn’t believe, yeah. But then I’ve seen him really go for people when it’s not right, and just he delivered a session during the season. I know we’re we’re obviously talking ride a cup, but he delivered this session, and I was like, I’ve never seen a head coach do anything like that. In terms of it’s basically a session that I kind of think, well, should that not be me doing it? But he’s got he’s got the connection, he’s built that culture, he’s been on that journey with them. So when your head coach does it, it and he has that relationship and that connection with them, just the impact is the impact’s bigger because he’s part of that group every day. I’m in like once a week. Yeah, so when he does it, it also communicates that this is important. We’re not just got some guy in who’s gonna do it, I’m running it, and it’s part of something we do each week or whatever. Um so for the head coach to buy in like that and then deliver it authentically was like that’s uh that’s pretty impressive. So he he’s yeah, he’s a pretty special leader.

Nish: 29:13

Yeah, well, you know, he delivered something wonderful, didn’t he, Jim? Yeah, Jim. Okay, well let’s let’s let’s bring it back to to the Ryder Cup because uh obviously it’s still fresh in our memories. Well, I hope it is anyway. But one of the things that really came out of that was the controversial atmosphere, and there was uh there was obviously it was in the America’s interest to build that up and stoke it as much as possible, and they did that. How did we don’t need to talk about the American side, you know that’s kind of almost irrelevant to us, but uh as Europeans and somebody who’s in the inner sanctum almost of working out what our response to that is gonna be, like how do you deal with that? Because the word bear pit is probably not too far off a dis the right description for that. Yeah, but it sounded horrific at times.

Tom Young: 30:00

There were there were definitely some moments like I walked out, it must have been day two. I think I’ve probably been watching it on TV for too long and thought I’d better get out of there. And um, it was hot, there were beers thrown everywhere, there was like all this dust and sand was kind of like coming up. You could smell weed because that’s legal in New York, which I was like, this feels weird. Um interesting, though. Yeah, no, yeah, when you think about it when you watch it. No, and it was like, whoa, all your senses are kind of like switched on at that point.

Nish: 30:30

Now it all makes sense, yeah.

Tom Young: 30:33

But then you everyone’s but then the crowds were also in certain instances, I felt they were far away. So almost like if you’re further away from the players, maybe you have to shout a bit more and be a bit more abusive or whatever. Yeah, and and there was some good-natured things, and then there was obviously like I think the McElroy Lowry match was particularly bad when they pulled the the the state troopers out there, yeah. Um, and in terms of the preparation, so it was it was intense, and I think the players have spoken about it since. And certain players will have had a a more extreme experience than others. Obviously, some were the with the with the clear targets, weren’t they? And the families and things like that. And I think that’s where it oversteps the mark. And I heard I think it might have been on the you know Gary Neville and Roy Keen the podcast on there, the uh stick stick to football. There’s no other public. They don’t exist. Anyway, it was Roy Keane talking about it. He was like, Well, you know, it’s just you know, they never play it’s like playing at Liverpool or playing at Anfield, and you’re like to me, I described it as it’s like getting off the bus as a Man United player, maybe at Anfield, yeah, and walking from the bus to the stadium with a load of opposition fans abusing you, yeah, yeah. But at the same time, you’ve got to do that for five hours, yeah. And you’ve got to do your job in between it, yeah. Like you’re not you’ve got to hit every shot and you’ve got to slow down and stop in front of that guy, and you’ve got to do all that. So that that’s kind of it’s a bit of a funny description, maybe, but that’s kind of how I No, I think that’s about it. So it’s making that walk whilst having to try and play your shots as well. You’re not going into a changing room to then get warmed up and then go out, where those voices kind of get drowned out into one, and then the preparation would be, I think, down to to Luke. One of the things he was really good at, I think, and it’s probably because he’s done it twice as well, and he thought he and he challenged me, he said, We can’t just do what we’ve always done. So, how are we gonna go a little bit deeper? So, my role in understanding the personalities and things like that, it’s a bit like how do how will these guys maybe respond under pressure? What might the early signs of someone being under stress be? Yeah, if we put two guys together, what’s that gonna be among in amongst that pressure? How can we kind of predict that? Yeah, um, and then obviously the stuff they’ve talked about, so they had the the VR, right? So McElroy’s come out and talked about that. I think they talked about it before. They did start it before, yeah. Oh, okay. That they’re probably gonna get abuse for that now as well. But like to go to that degree, and I think some players probably thought, oh, that was quite cool, and some players will have really enjoyed it and kind of got into it a little bit more, and they had the choice between the audio, they could kind of dial up the ferocity of what they were hearing in their ears. So that’s quite you know, we talk about marginal gains, but willingness to go, right, you know, we’re doing we’re doing that this time, um, and we’re just gonna put it in front of the players. And I think you’ve got to respect the fact that these guys are individual athletes, so I might give you something and give you the same thing, and you go, that sounds like a load of rubbish, and you go, that sounds great, I want to do it. So you’ve got to respect the fact that they’ll have their own teams and they’ll make their own decisions and things like that. Yeah, um, and then in terms of the preparation, they also he was very clear in his messaging about players being able to have a response under that stress and pressure. So, not telling them what it should be, but saying that he expected you to be able to respond. Yeah, I mean, obviously, if you’re then Roy, I don’t know if Rory’s plan was to say shut the F up and then hit it to three foot. If it was, then that’s a pretty phenomenal response, isn’t it? I think that’s my plan as well, but I’m not sure I can do it. Don’t execute it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Nish: 33:57

And then just and actually, you you you brought up a really, really good point there, and it and it did feel that way from television. I’ve I’ve I’ve mentioned this a few times on our podcast, and I have been lucky enough to have gone to two rider clubs. And so do know if you’re actually there watching it, yeah. Sometimes you haven’t got the foggiest what’s actually going on, it’s better to watch it on TV because you get an idea of the momentum. But it was it was incredible to watch on TV that every time there was a flash point and every time you thought, oh, hang on, yeah, this could start to go a bit. We always had a response. There was always something, somebody pulled out something, and I I this is where it was like it felt better on TV to watch this because you could see what was happening maybe in a different match, and then that got you in a better mood sort of watching it. Yeah, and I I I sort of felt about that Sunday that almost when the Americans went, hang on a minute, we just need to play some good golf here and we can win this ride of pull off this amazing comeback. But then that’s when it started happening rather than just going, let’s use all these gimmicks of running down the fairway with a flag and stuff like that. I don’t need that. Yeah, we think we’re better than them or we know we’re better than them, whatever. Yeah, let’s let’s do that. And I just found it it was a fascinating interplay that, and actually again, it was it was clutch moments that just got it over the line for us.

Tom Young: 35:12

So you’re talking about clutch moments. The best examples for me was Shane Lowry, obviously hits his approach shot on the 18th when we were back in the gym watching it on TV. And um he’s given this interview two weeks later. I think they were playing in a pairs thing or whatever, and he he talked about it and he said, obviously, is it this shot to what was it, eight foot or whatever it was? Um further away, maybe than it than it actually was, is how it felt. And he talked about how in that moment, so your br your brain goes, shit, like this is a massive moment. Like and your for us for us, what it wants to do is go is speed you up, so get it get this done. Like, yeah, so not consciously, but subconsciously, we speed up under pressure, right? Yeah, okay. And he’s probably gone, shit, what like there’s a bit in his mind that might go, what if this happens, what if that happens. But he talked about reframing it to go, how cool would it be if I all this put? This is something I’ve dreamt of since I was a kid. Yeah, so from hitting that shot to putting his club uh club back in the bag to and walking up, he’s reframed it in his mind, and he’s almost like dialed up a more optimistic rather than thinking about the threat, he’s dialed up the optimistic side of it, yeah, yeah, to be able to then and obviously to then be able to then go and deliver it. So that was to me a great example of like a little technique where you can reframe it. Yeah, um, and that’s something he he obviously did quite naturally with the caddy, so it shows the role of the caddy as well. But but just a really good example, it feels quite simple, but to be able to do it under that pressure in that short amount of time, yeah, is pretty pretty remarkable.

Nish: 36:44

That’s fascinating, isn’t it? Because that is something you could take to the course. Like if we went out today now, this is good for Chris because he does go into some downward spirals, not not mentioning rounds particularly but Cruden Bay. It was it was a moody, misty morning, and Chris was moody and misty that day. They did not enjoy that round. I was the opposite. I was just like, this is amazing, like what a great place, and consequently, you know, we’d well you still shot a good round, you know, but I think you just were down and out about that round. Yeah, yeah. But well, that’s a great thing, is like actually what’s gonna happen when I do hit this, yeah, and it’s a good thing. And I suppose all you’re visualising then is the good stuff.

Tom Young: 37:19

Yeah, yeah. It’s it’s one of those though. I think it’s where you start from. So if I’m playing, I am someone that sees the threats a little bit. So for that, sometimes that’s really useful to go, right? Well, what would the optimist be saying here? Like, how good’s this? What a chance this is, how are you gonna get this done? Whereas if someone’s really like bold and quite reckless, there are certain times where you want them to just go chill out. Yeah, yeah. Like, what’s the best thing to do here? Like, really, yeah. You know, there’s a tiny gap and you think you’ve channelled tiger once. It’s always a gap. Yeah, it’s always a gap. But actually, in reality, just dial it back and just you know, people say take your medicine or whatever, but in that moment where you’re thinking, you’re also suddenly you’re over the ball, it’s in your hands, you’re taking a practice swing, you’re not really sure about what you what you’re doing, and you end up sometimes doing neither. You you kind of you don’t commit to anything, you don’t commit to anything, so you end up kind of just going, nah. Yeah, so that would be an example of understanding where the individual starts from, like your personality, your character, how that plays out on the golf course, and where that might help you, but also where it might trip you up. And if it’s gonna trip you up, how are you gonna respond? How are you gonna catch yourself? Because, like I say, before you know it, you’ve hit one shot, then another, then another, and you go, I’ve done it again. Yeah, you know, which we all do, right? I used to throw clubs, but I’m I’m a psychologist in golf. Yeah, yeah. Well, because you’re used to being okay at most sports, and suddenly you start this new one, and it’s like, shit, this is this is hard. And if I swing faster, it doesn’t help. And this is a frustratingly hard goal as well. And so I played um you’re talking about like crude and bass, so I played Port Rush for the first time, right? Brilliant, nice. And I’ve been there for the open in 2019 and stayed with the family. We got quite close with them. We went over to play him. It was during COVID, so it was like we couldn’t go abroad, could you but you could go in the UK? So the whole family went over, right? And um, so we stayed in this house, and he’s a member, one of the guys from from Port Rush. Um, so ended up playing it as a as a guest, which was unbelievable. I was like, This is your local course, like just balling round on a like a Wednesday night, like and he’s like, Yeah, just pencil bag and throwing a few clubs down anyway. So you build it up in your head, maybe like you did, Chris, with crude and bet. Yeah, yeah. So I’ve got it’s Port Rush, I’ve never played it. I’ve got to play well, I’ve got to play well. So you start using words like I have to, I should. Like you’ve been playing well at home, so you should play well. It’s pissing it down. Yeah, it’s the worst weather I’ve ever played golf in. Um, you’ve got one lad who played for Ireland rugby union, Andrew Trimble was playing with us, played 50 odd times. I mean, he he’s not a golfer, so it’s not like standards or anything, but people you’ve not met before, anyway. You build up in your head, and the weather was awful. I played so bad. And talk about like dark mood and that, and it got to one hole, I think it was like the 13th or something, and they’re all Going, oh, this is where we can go in. This is the last bit we can go in, really. And I’m like, no, we’re not going in. Like, we’re going to go to the house. I’m playing 18. I’m playing 18 holes. But you build it up in your head, don’t you? And it takes away the enjoyment of it. Yeah. And I’ve been back a few more times now, and you kind of get a bit more comfortable. But you try, I try now and just think, if I’m going somewhere like that, like I almost have a match or just try and a bit like you were saying, Nish, like take it in, what a great day. Because I’m worried about my scores when I’m playing at my own course. Yeah, yeah. And but it’s hard. It’s not, yeah, you know, it’s not easy to do if you’re starting with really high expectations and standards. Yeah. So yeah.

Nish: 40:36

Yeah, I think that that’s probably the key difference between us, right? You you’ve got to pass your beat. Yeah, and you’ve got to pass what you’ve got on. I’ve got zero standards. Talking about golf, right? I’m subterrating there’s everything, mate. You know, just that’s how that’s the that’s the key to happiness, I think. Expect very little. Yeah, but um no, it it it you you’ve you’ve you’ve performed at a high level in the past. You know you can do this. Yeah, yeah. It’s like you know, if I I used to play Bamin Tavini and stuff like that. If I go out and try and play those shots now, like I’m breaking my body, basically. Absolutely, but in your head you can still do it. Yeah. And I think do you know what I don’t have interesting?

Chris: 41:06

I think that’s something that over the course of doing this, I’ve probably come to terms with a bit more. Because I think when I first started back, I’ve not played for it. You’re gonna relax now, aren’t you? But yeah, I think I’ve come to terms with that a little bit. Yeah.

Nish: 41:17

In in in terms of entertainment, Chris, it’s better if we have a yin and you need to heat more than a lot of things. You have to score well. But that’s I will score.

Tom Young: 41:25

Those standards will also help you. Do you know what I mean? Like it it’ll work against you at certain times, but 80% of the time it’ll probably be something that’s a strength. Like if you work with an athlete and the and that those kind of things will be like, well, he’s got really high standards, really high expectations, always driven, wants to get better, look, reflects on his game, um, goes and practices and applies that, then there’s a load of good stuff. Yeah, it’s when that becomes really intense, and it’s like you start almost taking it personally, like you were shit today. Yeah, or um, that wasn’t good enough. Yeah. And you start taking it as like you as a human being. My negative chat is brilliant. Yeah. Like we could we could do a whole podcast on that if we just almost wrote that down. Yeah, but but like try and try and reframe it, even in a way if it’s like funny, or you know, just try so it can that inner voice can can help you.

Nish: 42:09

Because not gonna be a not gonna be a speed down for when we finish playing sometimes and we’re in the hour drive back home or something like that. Afterwards, it’s I’ve got to say, genuinely, there have been occasions when you’re just like, chill out, Chris, you shot an 82. Yeah, raging at an 82. Like we went, we played SNA and like like Chris was like, God, that was the worst I’ve ever played at 93. I was like, I’m dreaming of shooting a 93 around here, you know. And of course, it I understand it’s totally about your level your relative skill levels, but there are also times when he’d be like, No, that’s terrible. You got like 12 pars that day. At what point are you saying that was a bad goal?

Tom Young: 42:45

Yeah, like but at that point, if someone comes in and goes, Yeah, but Chris, what was really good? You’d be like, nothing, yeah, nothing. Yeah, but afterwards reflecting, like I do think like amateurs, and I it’s funny, I’ll I’ll I I might give advice, but when I come and play, I’m still rocking up at the tee with no warm-up, yeah, yeah, hitting a shot, hoping it’s alright. Um but I but I often come and play just to piss like mess about, yeah, yeah. Just play with mates that I’ve known for you for years and years. Yeah, yeah. It’s almost like when people start asking you for advice and then you see you not doing it. So that’s not great for business, that so um you try and just play with lads that you’ve known who basically can just have to be a little advocate of no warm-up. Yeah, yeah. So it’s sometimes it works.

Chris: 43:25

I just turn up, I just play. Actually, I obsessively need to warm up, so I need like an hour and like I need to go and like I’ll be at the range and I’ll be yeah, I need I need that.

Tom Young: 43:33

I love that I need it. I need it.

Nish: 43:34

But you did it because I played better without it usually, but I don’t where is it that you had almost no warm-up and then you actually did alright? It wasn’t the last Scottish, wasn’t it? When we played Cavendish. It’s like hangover.

Tom Young: 43:47

Sometimes you think I’ll play awful if I’m hungover, and then oh no, I’m awful hungover.

Nish: 43:52

That’s many goals at Ganton. I’m never gonna get that. We’ve tried and tested all these methods this year. Okay. That was one of my techniques, just have a few bits. Obviously, we tr we’ve tried everything to try and uh this, yeah, sometimes. But um, yeah, I think it it’s that that’s it’s the reframing is is incredible, isn’t it?

Tom Young: 44:08

You can apply it in life as well, to be fair. Like if you and teams do it as well, so we have to win. You know, that’s one, or we always struggle at the or I never play well at this golf course, or and even I never play the ninth hole well. Well, you’re probably giving yourself a bit of a rough start with that. Yeah, rather than well withholding the water, you know. Rather than when I did play it well, what happened, or what would I need to do in order to give myself the best chance of playing it well. Yeah, we all have these like beliefs, and sometimes it helps you because you’re like, I always play the second well, yeah, you know, and sometimes it goes against you, so it’s kind of just being aware of that in a inner voice as well. Someone said psychology can’t beat physics to me. So if you’ve got the right you could like make a great decision psychologically, but if your swing’s a bit funky, you know, you can still mess up, and that’s yeah, part of it really. It’s a cracky word to describe it. Funky I wasn’t specifically talking about your swing, but just in in general, yeah. Like I said to a guy who I think he was plus five, played at SNA, and he’s so good. I was like, is it not boring for you? Like, because he was going around with me, and he was like, Is it not boring being that good at something? Like in terms of you’ll probably go, no, I’d love to be that. I’d love to do it what’s that? But you know, like it’s almost felt too easy, like part of goals is the struggle, isn’t it? And I know they will have different struggles because if you if you’re not three under, you’re kind of struggling, but the is the grind and the fight and uh bringing yourself back and managing yourself. So maybe you come off with a 85 when it could have been a 93 because you brought yourself back for that final six holes or whatever, yeah. Um, and I do think the struggle struggle that’s why people kind of latch on to golf, especially like if it becomes your second sport after playing a team sport, it still gives it like because you never can you never complete it, yeah. You’re never gonna. Yeah, so if you’re a perfectionist, you’re never gonna get there. Yeah, exactly. It’s the perfect game for me.

Nish: 45:52

Yeah, Chris, I feel like you really shouldn’t have taken up golf. It’s uh yeah, it’s it it’s it’s a game that gets in your head, you know. And I suppose that’s why you’re sat here, Tom. Yeah, well, yeah. But um okay, right. We we’re we will we I think we’ve touched on some good stuff that uh I think anybody could literally just take that out into the course right now. Is there anything you would advise to somebody if they do get into this negative spiral? We’ve all had it, we’ve all had a blow-up hole. And what happens that bleeds into the next two or three, and then you probably have a give your head a bit of a wobble, you have a word with yourself, and you probably say the the magic words just go, come on, I’m here on a Friday morning with my mates, come just enjoy it, and then you start playing well again.

Tom Young: 46:34

Or your card’s gone then, and you just free up, don’t you? You free up.

Nish: 46:37

I’m not putting it in now, you know, that’s it. And he’s like, You so you at the start you went, I’m not putting the card in, then you play a couple of good holes. You go, I’ll put a card in now, and then you go, No, I’m throwing it away. Yeah, yeah.

Tom Young: 46:45

But it is there anything that you would advise you gotta tell you you’ve got to put your uh in advance, you’ve got to declare your comment that you do a good card, you know, commonly I would never do that. I’d never do that either.

Nish: 46:57

It’s just hypothetically if that’s what you were doing. Someone else might be. Somebody might do that, yeah. Um but but what what would you suggest for somebody to do to try and almost negate that bleeding into the next? We’re all gonna have a blow-up hole, of course we are, and that’s relative, it could be a six and a par four, and you think that’s terrible. But is there anything you think we should be looking to do?

Tom Young: 47:18

The first thing is it probably is don’t expect yourself just to go out and be able to do that, as in if you’ve not thought about how you want to do it or you’ve not practiced it. So if you split it up into like before a round, like almost to try and prevent that happening. So what even if you had three mini goals for a round, um, might be specific to your game, it might be how you want to feel. You know, if someone’s really like an overthinker and they’re thinking about the the the actual side of the swing, I’d often say, How do you want to fit? How do you feel when you play your best golf? And it might be like free or powerful or athletic or whatever, right? Well, chase that feeling when you’re when you’re actually playing then rather than this, and beforehand, just have a little bit, I would call it like a mental framework, like how am I going to respond in certain situations? I played with someone the other day and he said, Oh yeah, I was in the trees, and I thought, Am I doing this, am I doing that? And in the end, I didn’t either. So before the round, have a bit of a plan and ideally practice a bit of that. So if you’re on the range, practice having a reset routine or whatever. I’ll talk a bit about that. And then actually in the moment, like it depends on your like sometimes you can have something funny that can kind of reset you a little bit or whatever. But the best one, if you’re gonna put like a bit of a framework for it, I would have it as release, reset, refocus, as in the split it up into three things. So release for me would be something physical. Almost it could be, for instance, like just releasing the tension, you know, like shaking it out. Yeah, it could be putting a club away or taking your glove off, those kind of things, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so something physical to release that tension, could be breathing, could be like I say, releasing that, it could be something to do with your golf um equipment, and then reset being something physical that’s almost it might be putting your glove back on. It might be if it was a you know, you hear like rugby players, footballers, they might pull the socks up, or you know, like something just to bring yourself back to something physical, yeah. Uh could be a breath again. So sometimes people use use breathing for that, and then refocus could just be another word like what’s important now, what’s my intention? Like so, splitting it up into three things and then practicing that, yeah. And it might not mean your next shot is amazing, but hopefully it makes it okay, yeah. And then your next shot after that is like, oh, I’m back on it now. Yeah, so don’t just hope that you can do it, yeah. I would say, yeah. Um, like just have a little I mean, if you talk about that release, reset, refocus, we’re talking what, 10 seconds? Yeah. If you practice it. Yeah. And you want to get to a point where it almost feels like you can just retrieve that from your brain quickly. Yeah. Yeah. And it just becomes natural and becomes part of what you do, like a pre-shot routine. Yeah, yeah. Um, so you’ve got to practice it in order to do that.

Chris: 49:57

It’s interesting because I was gonna ask you, because I used to have a set of routines that I used to use a long time ago. Yeah, I can’t even get my brain anywhere close to doing that anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like not even close. And I don’t know whether that’s maybe it’s just not practicing it, right? It’s not you’re not doing it very regularly. But also, I think nowadays I’ve got kids and I’ve got work and I’ve got life kind of going on outside of that. Is there anything is there anything that you do to kind of make that transition from I’m coming away from home and I’m going on to the golf course? What like as a something to do to to start yourself off?

Tom Young: 50:27

I think you I mean that stuff we talked about, having those three mini goals or a feeling to chase would apply there. Yeah, I think people could use some kind of ground in breathing, you know, simple stuff like that. It’s more about this stuff should not take hours. Yeah, you know what I mean? It’s not like going to the range and grinding on your game. Yeah, it’s things that you can actually feed into all that side of things. So if you’ve got a 10-minute drive, it might be, I’m just gonna listen to the radio, that might be you, that fine, right? Yeah, you don’t want to overthink either. So it’s getting the balance right for that individual. So again, like I wouldn’t say to you, like, right, you need to go back to all those routines. Because sometimes you have someone who has so many routines, they actually lose the ability to play. Yeah, they’re almost like a robot. So you become so logical and so precise and so kind of meticulous, yeah, that you’re oh, I had I had one extra practice stroke there. And you with those people you want to go chill out, yeah, like yeah, trust your instinct, trust your gut a bit. So you might have a routine like a pre-shot routine or a pre-round routine. It’s like a footballer, if something goes wrong and they’ve they’ve put the left shin pad on before the right or whatever and it goes out the window, whereas it’s like it’s okay if you’ve got 10 minutes or if you’ve got 20 minutes, just have that freedom within that framework. So if you are someone who’s very routine-based, there is an element if that becomes too intense that that can hold you back as well because you become rigid.

Chris: 51:44

Yeah.

Tom Young: 51:44

Whereas if you’re hitting a creative chip shot or you’ve got to try and see it, or it’s a long port or a short port. Like you I remember with one player saying, Oh, you know, oh, I’ve got I’ve had too many practice strokes. Like, well, does it matter? You’ve had an extra one because there was some part of your you’re an expert in golf, yeah, and your gut was telling you you needed to do an extra one.

Chris: 52:01

That’s cool. Yeah.

Tom Young: 52:02

So sometimes it’s about letting go of those routines as well. Depends where your starting point is. So it’s like if you’ve got no routines or frameworks, yeah, you should probably have a couple of simple ones, like to put it simply. And if you’ve got loads and different one for your driver and your irons and da da da da da, and it gets a bit risk like constrained, try and free up a little bit. So sometimes if you’re practicing, and there’ll be some serious amateur golfers, right? And they’ll go and structure their practice. I’d say put 10 minutes of play in there where you’re just playing with different shots, so you’re on the short game, and you just because going back to being a kid and you’re being curious and playful and you’re working things out, yeah, go for that. So there’s a few things in there.

Nish: 52:39

Yeah, fun. That’s it. Yeah, yeah.

Tom Young: 52:40

Because no one really cares how you play apart from you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like when we’re talking about it’s the spotlight effect in psychology. Like you think everyone’s looking at you. You you you’re on the first tee, everyone’s watching, and in reality, no one cares.

Nish: 52:52

Well, so somebody sent me I’d because I had a very uh public meltdown in a bunker in Carnegie. I think I saw that one. And then a couple of my mates. I’m trying to get everyone to see that. They’re not golfers. It’s a great video. Some of my mates are not golfers, and yeah, I just go, Oh, you had a bit of a bit of an idea. And I still find it genuinely funny. I really do.

Tom Young: 53:09

It’s a nice place to be that if you can find it funny.

Nish: 53:11

And I was just the guys that we played with, like Paul that we played with, was just he kept putting his arm around me, it’s like it’d be alright, but I was like, but like you You know, I’m not bothered with respect, you don’t know my mentality, like that’s gone. It’s been consigned to the mid, it doesn’t matter. Now just happen the next bunker. But you know, yeah, um, it it doesn’t affect my enjoyment of the day. Because I think he was like worried, like, oh my god, they’re gonna now go and do a podcast and they’re gonna say they hated car news to you.

Tom Young: 53:33

Yeah, because of this bunker.

Nish: 53:34

Like, nah. That’s part of the challenge. The moment for me was sitting in the get trying to pretend to get in the bird, you know, that’s that’s the the whole thing for me. But um please don’t name any names because uh at the minute I can’t afford a lawsuit. But um what’s the weirdest superstition you’ve encountered? It could be in any sport, by the way, it doesn’t have to be a golf thing, but is there a superstition where you’ve just gone, hang on a minute, because like famously you’ve got Nadal, like you could see him on the tennis court, couldn’t you twisting bottles round and all sorts, and then it was like bum, yeah, bum, mouth, whatever, and it was like right now. I’m gonna is that plan though, or is that just him kind of I couldn’t figure out whether it grown over the years, every year you added another new twitch of it.

Tom Young: 54:15

I’m gonna I’m probably gonna give you a not few like there’s sometimes it’s like uh pre-match meals, and you think, well, is that sports science-wise? Is that the is like beans and cheese on toast the best the best pre-match meal? One of the greatest meals ever, exactly. Yeah, right. But but like so that I always think that’s that stuff’s a little bit weird, but um Yeah, not encountered anything in general. No, nothing nothing. I’m sure there will be some, you know what I mean? But yeah.

Nish: 54:38

I just thought that golf seems to be a place where you would have weird superstitions, yeah. Because you’re just you’re such a solitary sport. Yeah, yeah.

Tom Young: 54:46

There’ll be like lucky like you know, your lucky head covers and all that kind of stuff, and ball markers and things like that. I imagine they’ll they’ll be a big a big part of it. Um I’m not massively superstitious. Yeah, so what’s your do you have?

Nish: 54:57

I’ve got I’ve got so and it it it changes, like this is how frequently it changes. So at the minute, I cannot put I feel like I can’t play a good round unless I’m using my plug Glenn Eagle’s pitch mark repairer.

Tom Young: 55:09

Oh, okay.

Nish: 55:09

I’ve only had that since March, but I’ve played plenty of good rounds before that, you know. Yeah, what did you do before it? Yeah, before like what did I do? You know, that kind of thing. And it’s just like what is that all about? It’s so weird. And then things like so I have my phone in my in my back pocket, yeah. And when you’re saying about reset and doing something physical, let it go, whatever. So sometimes like I always have it in my right back pocket. Yeah. Sometimes just not hitting the ball well. And it’s like, I’ll just change it. Still don’t hit it well, I’ll change it back, and it and then I hit my right, and they’re like, oh, that’s it, it’s done it. And it’s weird, isn’t it, how that thing works.

Tom Young: 55:41

You know what you’re talking about, Tommy. People are just people are just if you think about it, human beings are just a bit they’re very hard to measure, even though that’s kind of sometimes what I try and do with like profiling and things like that. But we’re all a bit quirky and a bit kind of inconsistent and chaotic. Yeah, and if it works, it works. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah, but I’d be stealing that pitch repairer. Oh, yeah. You know, just just yeah, just hide it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don’t worry, mate. I bought about 20 since I realised that was a superstition. Yeah, no, no, no real standout strange ones to be fair. That’s not that spring to mind anyway. That’s interesting. I’m sure there’ll be some in rugby league, but they just probably hide it well.

Chris: 56:15

So just kind of getting more specific about people and and and golf and psychology. I’ve used you’ve done a bit of work with with Tommy Fleetwood as well. Just describe a little bit in kind of the work that you’ve done with him. And obviously, recently his performances are are you know going through the roof and he just looks like he’s on a real upward trajectory.

Nish: 56:31

Is Tommy Fleetwood the most loved man in golf at the moment? Like everybody loves him.

Tom Young: 56:39

I worked with Tommy we were saying before, like I think 2013 or 2014, early on when he came on tour, um, and then we stopped, and then we started again in 2017, and we did till 2022. So, not working with him now, so but obviously time passes and you’re just so happy for him because you know he probably is the most loved man in golf, and you could see the reception in the States from him that you know obviously he got that win, and if he hadn’t got that win, that would have been something they would have probably been shouting at him at Beth Page. But everyone was just happy for him, and I don’t know because I’ve known him since before he obviously had that fame, and he he probably is he’s just he’s someone who really grows in a team environment, um, as you can see, even from Paris, he just kind of gets he almost likes that responsibility. He’s physically bigger, yeah. Actually, he’s almost hunched over a bit when he’s on his own, but then he’s uh body language is a funny one because I think like Rory McElroy’s body language to Tommy Fleetwood’s body language, your starting point is very different. There’s no point in expecting him to be like him, or vice versa. Um, but in terms of his approach, I guess, like he’s just someone who’s he thinks a lot, he he’s very reflective, he’s quite calm, so he’s quite consistent in terms of the people that he works with and how he approaches the game. A lot of people in the game, I think, see somebody else doing something and go, I need to do that, you know, I need that gadget, I need that. Yeah, um, and I think he’s just really comfortable in his own skin now and realizing that you’re enough as you are, as the Molinari effect, I think that’s how Molly would think. Quite possibly, but he you know, like that thing about being part of a team and that responsibility, for some reason, some people grow with it. Yeah, and whether it’s because I’m doing it for this lot, I’m not just doing it for myself, yeah. Um, whether it’s that match play, it frees you up in terms of like it would free someone else up because that hole’s gone and just reset. Um, but just a really good human being, I I would say, like, and it’s a little bit like we said about Luke, yeah, he’s a really nice guy, but he also has this like dog in him, yeah, where there’s a real there’s a real grit and toughness to him, yeah. Where you you can make no mo make no mistake, to do what he’s done, there is that that side of him as well.

Nish: 58:59

You can’t just nice guy your way around professional sport, no, like no, but it’s gotta be something.

Tom Young: 59:03

But there’s also that realization that you can be nice a lot of the time and still win. Yeah, you know, yeah.

Nish: 59:08

Now he’s won that one and he’s won another one since it’s you know, he’s but it’s interesting you’re saying about the the what would have come up at Beth Page had he not won. Yeah, because I went on a couple of American podcasts previewing the the Ryder Cup and and actually they all said we’re so happy that Tommy’s actually won a forget all the rivalry or whatever, but just everyone’s really happy about it. But yeah, you better believe that would have come up.

Tom Young: 59:32

It’s a pretty cool, it’s a pretty cool story because I I don’t think there’s any good stories that don’t have that struggle. And there were times where you’re like, because your whole family gets feels part of it. So my kids have grown up kind of watching him and you know, wanting him to do well. And you know, we FaceTimed, I FaceTimed home at Beth Page, and he walked in the background and I was like, Oh, you’re right, you know. Um so they’ve kind of all been part of that journey, yeah. Like my mum and dad, everyone, and you don’t get that connection if they’re not a good person. Yeah, it be you know, you don’t have That same kind of I don’t know empathy or connection with that story. And you just understand them as a human being, and then you just want to be you just want them to get to get what they deserve, and he has and I’m sure he’ll carry on doing so.

Nish: 1:00:16

Another thing that came up just when I was remembering the podcast, so we were talking about the VR headset. So that that did actually the first time I heard about that was on a podcast, so they basically just chucked a question at me and they went, Yeah, we’ve heard these reports about the European Ryder Cup team. Yeah. And the comment they made was, Oh, this is hilarious. They went, I guarantee you, no matter what you’re playing in your ears, that’s gonna be 20 times worse when you actually get to the agent. There was some pretty bad stuff in there. How like I I mean I’m actually whether you could divulge this or not, I don’t know, but how like how what do they do? Do they get somebody in the studio to record just like I think so, yeah. Look at look at this Irish man’s face, and that’s Rory couldn’t make anyone. Is that what it does? Well, how do you get that gig? Yeah, who’s done that? Who’s done that?

Tom Young: 1:01:01

Who’s done that gig? I mean, I don’t know who did it, um, and I heard some snippets of it, and I think they were asked what’s the line, and they said there is no line. Yeah, so you can just you can just go with go with what you want, and then the player gets to have that that choice. So now I reckon they’d have gone pretty close to to what I’ve done. To the bone, really. And the other thing with the fans, like our like our fans, and I guess is it’s like there’s there’s more banter to it, isn’t there? So there’s a bit more kind of nuanced at times. Personal, isn’t it? It’s not personal, but like if you’re getting our team to think that through, like what could we say to these guys, they’ll be pretty they’ll be pretty sharp on it, I imagine. Didn’t they get each other to like just get them out now? Yeah, yeah. I don’t know. I mean that wasn’t my gig, but I uh you know. I’m fascinated who that’s gonna be. Yeah, you’d have to ask one of the players. I don’t know, you I don’t know that like they talked about it, didn’t they?

Nish: 1:01:52

So yeah, it was interesting. Um this is almost like it’s really, really well planned, but one of the people that was quite critical about the potential barricane they were gonna get pre-rider cut was Matt Fitzpatrick because his parents didn’t go over and he said they found it was over. Winston Straits was bad. Yeah, yeah. What’s Matt Fitzpatrick like as a character? Because he he he feels like he’s just like you can’t see him. This and I I don’t mean this disrespectfully to Matt at all. He does not fit the stereotype of an elite top of the top of his game sportsman, he’s just like your mate next door who just happens to be very good at something. Yeah, yeah, that’s it, and he’s so relatable that guy.

Tom Young: 1:02:34

Yeah, I’d say so. Like very obviously well published, like he’s into his data and analytics and he works closely with Eduardo on on that side of things. He’ll get his confidence from that preparation. Yeah, there is that element as well, like we’ve said with a few of them, he’s gonna be tough, he’s gonna, you know, he’s he’s gonna have that ability to manage himself under pressure. It’s just very it’s it’s quieter, so it’s not confrontational, maybe like some people who go head to head with someone, it’s more going back to his process, yeah, yeah. But there’s definitely an element of that kind of because he looks so young as well. Like 2016 was his first book.

Chris: 1:03:08

When we stood on the T next to Bryson when they were going off for singles, I was like, this is literally just like the most polar opposites, isn’t it? He’s like such a different time. What a matchup that was.

Nish: 1:03:17

And he was he was he was on it, wasn’t he?

Chris: 1:03:19

At this time, he absolutely annihilated him, didn’t he? The first seven or eight holes. He was all over it.

Tom Young: 1:03:22

And that and that that is it. We’ll make judgments on people based on like how they look. I mean, uh, we were on the what hole was it, 13th, 14th. It was like the pathway. I think it was the easiest hole in the course in the practice, and he was chipping from the side. I think this was on Instagram or something, and he was chipping this like got a tough shot from this kind of rough, and there’s a guy behind him going, he’s hitting one and he’s duffed it and he’s going, no, and then he’s in another one, he’s like, No. And it’s like this guy behind him, and to be fair, he’s just laughing. So Matt’s just laughing. You can imagine maybe someone will get a bit annoyed or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And then they’re like, nice sketches and all this kind of stuff. And he’s just laughing it off. So and he’s quite happy. What was that? What I found interesting was if that was me, I’d go, I’m not hitting this shot again. Almost just go, hopefully it won’t happen. Yeah, and uh, and he just stuck with it, stuck with it, and then when he got it, they’re all cheering and things like that. And yeah, he’s not someone I’ve had a huge amount of time with. Yeah, um, but what I would say about the whole group is you kind of just think they’re just good people, but like honestly, you kind of like you can see that from like the party they have and the yeah, the way they interact with people in the back room staff, and yeah, um, they just seem like a good group to well, they are a good group to be around. There’s no say there’s no ego, there will be ego in that room. Of course there is, but when you’re talking to them about other things, you know, that they would say, Oh, what’s it like working in rugby? or Oh, okay, like, because they have this respect for team sports as as well. So once you get speaking to them like that in that bubble, just normal guys, really. Yeah, have a bit of a laugh and you know, they enjoy a beer afterwards and celebration, and yeah.

Chris: 1:04:53

I don’t I don’t know if you can really go into this too much, but in terms of how do you gather like the personality types and the data on those people, like yeah, is that something that’s ready and available, or is that something that you go out and physically?

Tom Young: 1:05:05

We use different we use different tools like online tools and things like that, where the guys fill them in and then that sits alongside kind of just it’s a one-word question.

Nish: 1:05:13

Are you a nice person? Yes, yeah, you’re in. But are you also are you also pretty tough as well? So yeah, you can’t just be too nice.

Tom Young: 1:05:20

If somebody said this to you, how would you you know that kind of it’s honestly it’s around understanding where someone starts from, and also you’ve got to understand that like the individual, the human being, might be slightly different to the golfer. Yeah, so you so people go, Oh, this is a cautious individual, but you see them on a golf course taking risks, you’re like, Yeah, but it’s a calculated risk, and they’ve practiced that shot over and over again. It’s actually not a risk to them because they’re very good at doing it, yeah. So they might have had a really logical process to be able to hit this risky shot, but we see the behaviour and goal, they’re a risk taker. Yeah, so it’s just where they start from, understanding that and understanding how they could how that will then show up on the side.

Nish: 1:05:56

Well, yeah, I mean, you saw you’re talking about Rose before when he played that amazing shot. Yeah. And you you don’t know, like in his head, he’s just going, well, I mean, we don’t we can see the lie, but like the ball’s lying well, yeah. And if I have a full swing at this, this is absolutely on my lob wedge distance so to the hole. Like so he’s like, I can’t believe this is amazing just to have a full you know, we you don’t know that calculation, but you’re right, to us it was like under that pressure. What a miraculous shot that was. How did you?

Tom Young: 1:06:22

Well, you’re thinking, how what would I do? And you’re like, well, I’ll probably duff it, or I’d probably like you know put yourself in the five. And then you go, Oh, it’s just in rose. Oh, okay. You’ll be fine. He’s done it if you’re he’s probably quite good at this, yeah, yeah. Knows what he’s doing, but still to be able to then get it as close as they did, and like you said, that with the responses, it just seemed to be one after the other on those first few days where they were just and sometimes you do get that, don’t you? You get a team that’s really well prepared, they’re very good at what they do, they’re really well connected, they’ve got a sense of purpose, and it just clicks, yeah, and there is a bit of fortune in that and it goes your way, and you know, and that’s why it didn’t it didn’t kind of um probably carry on all the way through the Sunday because you’re coming up against a very good team as well.

Nish: 1:07:01

Right. So, Tom, obviously you’re on the top 100 in 10 golf podcast. Yep, worldwide famous and all that kind of stuff. But which of the top 100 courses have you played in the past, which is your favourite?

Tom Young: 1:07:12

Obviously, there’s different lists, isn’t there? So, you know, I know the list that you’re going off doesn’t have Woburn in it, so because that would have been that would have been it, that would have been in for me. Um the two that stand out, so we talked about it before, Port Rush, that’s got a special place from a point of view of the course is amazing. Yeah, I’ve kind of battled with it and I kind of feel alright with it now. Um, but just stunning views, like the elevation, and then just the people of that place. I just like me and my whole family just love that place. They’re friendly.

Chris: 1:07:38

That’s a bit a big reason, a big part of the reason that we’re doing this, is because I went to Port Rush and was like stood up still stood on the road over the both above and just looked down. I was like, I’ve got to go and play that yeah, of course. It just looks incredible.

Tom Young: 1:07:48

And it’s the one that I if so I didn’t play it this year, just gone, and I was I like you have that like you’ve missed out. There’s a you know, I need to go and play it hopefully a couple of times this this year. Um, and the other one for me round here would like Hillside. I’m assuming that’s on there, right? Hillside’s on there, Hillside’s gotta be on there. So um just a really good, like so welcoming. It feels just like a normal golf course when you go and you have that welcome, but obviously you play it, the contrasting front and back nines. Um so I’ve been fortunate to play that. That would be that would be right up there.

Nish: 1:08:17

It looks like a cracking course as well.

Tom Young: 1:08:19

Yeah, and again, it’s the people because they they welcome you. There’s not that kind of you don’t you just feel I don’t know whether it’s because it’s up here, up in the north or whatever, but just we’ll take that. Yes, because it’s up in the north. Stunning course, friendly stunning stunning course, good people. So they would be my my top two. So excellent. Are they they still to be played? Still to be played, most still to be played, yeah. Absolutely.

Nish: 1:08:39

So there you go, got treat. Looking forward to to those two courses. So well, Tom, look, thank you. Thanks for bringing in uh if you’re listening to this episode, get on YouTube because Tom’s actually brought some bits and bolts from the Ryder Cup that he’s he’s got a scarf, we’ve got a cushion, we’ve got a towel. Towel’s one of my favourite things to bring, and obviously there’s Tom’s book as well.

Tom Young: 1:08:58

I’m revealing all the things that you kind of steal while you’re there. Yeah. No, like to be fair, the the stash is is some of the best, like the the the exciting bit as well. But um of course it is, yeah. It was all given, it wasn’t it wasn’t it wasn’t stolen, honestly.

Nish: 1:09:10

Yeah, that’s it. But thanks for your time time today, Tom. Uh we we both absolutely loved our chat. No worries, thanks for having me. I’m gonna pop links to your site and and your book as well um on on the description.

Tom Young: 1:09:21

Cool.

Nish: 1:09:22

Next time on the top 100 in 10 golf podcast, it’s our Christmas special and awards episode. So don’t miss that one.