Jerk That Lower Back

Nish: 0:01

Every story has an ending. Does our quest to play the top 100 courses in 10 years have a good ending? I’m Mish and I’m your host guiding you through this golfing journey. This is the Top 100 in 10 Golf Podcast

Nish: 0:15

Bonus episode. Jerk that lower back.

Nish: 0:19

Twist and bend and hyper-extend Does that sound like your golf?

Nish: 0:23

I had a recent incident with my elbow that got me thinking about getting some advice from a friend, danika, who’s an expert in this kind of thing. Now I’ve got a podcast, so nothing’s quite private anymore, so this is going to happen in front of a mic. So, as I said, I’m joined by my pal, danika, um, so I’ve got some blurb about her here. She’s a physiotherapist, which is actually why she’s here, and she’s got 15 years experience in the NHS and the private sector. And if that wasn’t enough, she’s also found time to teach Pilates for the last seven years, and she recently had a beautiful baby girl, cara. Now, if you’re like me and you’re immediately getting tired just thinking of all the stuff that she’s doing, she also specialises in musculoskeletal physiotherapy that’s exactly what I bless you and she sees a multitude of conditions to do with the back, the shoulders pardon me and the neck.

Denika: 1:22

It’s a bit like head shoulders, knees and toes, isn’t it?

Nish: 1:25

Head, shoulders, knees and toes. That’s very baby-centric.

Denika: 1:28

You can tell I’m in baby brain mode as well. I know straight away.

Nish: 1:32

So welcome to the podcast, anika, thanks for coming today, and obviously I’m going to discuss my problem with you straight away, of course, because that’s why you’re here. What do you do when you get an expert in? You talk about yourself, but, um, before that, who are you?

Denika: 1:47

who am I? Who are you? I know it seems a bit mad. I’ve been working for 15 years. I know I don’t look it because my skincare regime you know, but but no, yeah. So I’ve been doing um physio for 15 years, working in the nhs, working privately, and set up pilates a few years ago. That was a big passion of mine and and I think I just really enjoy someone who’ll come to me, like yourself, with an issue and you’re a bit like a detective being a physiotherapist, so it’s like right, what happened? When did it happen? Is there anything that brings it on? So getting a big, full history from that person and then basically using the science to work out right is it a muscle, is it a tendon problem, is it a nerve problem? And so, yeah, so I just I love my job, I’m really lucky to do a job that I really enjoy, and then you’re seeing people progress and do their exercises, hopefully, and get better. So yeah.

Nish: 2:36

So tell me then what’s been happening with you well, uh, my main issue has been that I sort of I woke up one morning and it and it was my elbow and it was. I was like I’ve got tennis elbow or whatever it is. I mean I don’t play any tennis or anything like that, but so it’s the outside of my elbow just here and I always get like because I lean on my elbows a lot when I work. Yeah, so you know, ever, my wife being a, being a nurse, as you know, and she’s the least sympathetic nurse you could- ever meet she was just like stop leaning, that’s all you need to do.

Nish: 3:11

Well, okay, but I don’t really lean that much now, maybe when I’m eating, but then I couldn’t quite figure out why am I getting this pain on like the outside bit of my elbow? So I mean, is it tennis elbow? Is that what it is?

Denika: 3:25

yeah, so it’s very interesting. So elbow is very interesting joint itself so you can have a tennis elbow which is actually the outside part where you’re getting your pain right.

Nish: 3:34

Or the medical name is a lateral epicondylitis lateral epicondylitis okay, yeah, yeah, easy sounds like a cocktail actually, doesn’t it? I love? I love two, two lateral epicantholysis.

Denika: 3:46

Epicondylitis is clean, light, high cream with that, yeah shaken or stirred and then the inside portion is golfer’s elbow, so that’s the flexor. So basically, the inside of the elbow is the flexor tendon, so that’s known as golfer’s elbow. I’m not a golfer, but it must be the way you do, yeah and that’s the thing it’s called golfer’s elbow is the flexor tendon and that’s something that.

Nish: 4:13

So that’s the inside inside.

Denika: 4:15

So you’ve got your common flexor origin and they all come down, all those tendons, into the house mine’s not the common one, mine’s the yours is you’ve got your flexor, whereas yours is more the extensor, so classic symptoms are.

Nish: 4:28

It can be quite tender yeah, like just really pushing that there so about like there yeah and your tendon yeah, there’s a sharp pain there actually, yeah so your tendon attaches to the bone.

Denika: 4:38

They run down. So there’s six or seven different tendons that come into, like you’ve got one for your first finger, one for the ring finger is this bad?

Nish: 4:44

is this terminal doc? No, that’s it now.

Denika: 4:47

I think there’s good stuff we can do don’t have to give up golf, do I? No, not at all as physios, we want to make sure we’re promoting right, okay so a little test we can do is test that tendon. So if you push your hand up against my hand, how does that feel? That’s all right, actually, yeah, yeah, yeah and then if you do it with your middle finger, oh yeah, I can feel that a bit, yeah, so that’s your extensor carpi radialis brevis um.

Denika: 5:09

So that’s a little test that we do see a roman emperor yeah, who thought a middle finger would be so painful? I nearly did it that way, then, and I thought no, that’s, that’s inappropriate, isn’t it?

Nish: 5:23

that’s what so solid crew meant with up middle finger. Is that what it was?

Denika: 5:27

but, what’s really interesting. So if we do that, so if we actually give that tendon offloaded bit of support, and then I get you to do that again, does it feel as though oh, yeah, no, yeah, I don’t feel anything there at all so the big thing yeah, big thing to get it better is stretches and exercises, and we can come on to that in a minute yeah but you can also get a little um. They call like an epicondylitis class seeing people wearing those.

Denika: 5:53

Yeah, so if it’s um if it was particularly bothersome during your golf or anything day to day. You can basically buy one of those for a couple of quid from amazon and decathlon, um, and they’re really good to just offload the tendon right so you can do what you want to do enjoy your golf but you’ve not got that niggling and that’s what it’s doing, is it?

Nish: 6:13

it’s just making sure it’s supported and it’s not fully stretched.

Denika: 6:16

A little bit, because what actually happens is where the tendon attaches to the bone, the epicondylitis. Anything ending in itis means inflammation right tendon attached to the bone.

Nish: 6:27

It’s basically tugging on that area of the bone and right it’s become really inflamed because tendons are attached to bones, is that right?

Denika: 6:33

right, yeah, yeah, right okay yeah, gcc biology yeah, there you go tendons are attached to the right tendons, actually the bone, and so basically, if you were getting golfers or tennis elbow, that clasp would be quite helpful just as a way right okay, still do what you need to do so I can buy some more gear, basically yeah, good excuse right, happy days.

Nish: 6:54

If ping want to do a branded epicondylitis brace, or whatever it was called, then I’m happy for that. That’d be great. Um, wonderful, okay, well, that’s me done, yeah, so thanks for coming on. See you later. We’re all done, um, right, but you are on here for a wider purpose and you know, I think it would be remiss of me not to use your expertise and your knowledge to help out, yeah, the two or three people who are listening to this. Um, so we obviously had a bit of back and forth, didn’t we? We’re trying to figure out what are we?

Denika: 7:26

going to talk about so much we could talk about yeah exactly.

Nish: 7:29

I mean in in the world of musculoskeletal physiotherapy. I think you could do quite quite a lot. So I sort of left it a bit to you to kind of go with um, and we sort of broke it down to a couple of little things. But, um, look, I’m just gonna let you fire away. What, like what sort of things do you want to talk about that you think are really good for us?

Denika: 7:48

yeah. So I think it’s really interesting because I’m not a golfer myself but I have over the years treated patients who come in and said, oh, hurt my back at golf, hurt my shoulder. So I think common areas and again, I suppose it’s the force that you’re, you’re putting through your swing yeah, the repetitive nature of it and I would say shoulder pain.

Denika: 8:07

So you see people with shoulder problems, see people with elbow problems, like you said, and knees as well sometimes can be a bit of a tricky area for people right and also plantar fasciitis, which I’ve had back first time. You’re like my expert patient here. Absolute fucking agony it was, but I’ve had that yeah, you’re like my expert patient here.

Nish: 8:25

Absolute fucking agony it was, but I’ve had that. Yeah, now that’s like a family thing.

Denika: 8:29

I think, yeah and it’s. It’s just interesting because again, as the physio, we’re being a bit of a detective. It’s like um, tell me. I always said to the patient right, show me what you do when you swing your golf.

Nish: 8:40

I know I said stick, then cool stick club golf stick it’s definitely a golf club, but we’ll let you off. The golf stick is absolutely fine um, I don’t know why it’s called a golf club. Actually, because the clubs, the way you play, is called a golf club. Yeah, and then what your swing is called a golf club. It makes kind of no sense. But then you club a seal, don’t you?

Denika: 9:00

so maybe it’s a reference to that maybe, hopefully you’re not clubbing anyone if you’re uh, no, just a bit of heather and gorse on the side of the course, that’s all.

Denika: 9:10

Um, yeah, oh, okay, right, that’s fine, yeah, so so they’ll actually just demonstrate like this is what I do, yeah, and it’s not as if I’m correcting them for technique, but it’s mostly like what is the body doing, as the you know, doing the golf swing? And it’s interesting then, because if I suppose from this way you might be able to help me with my knowledge if you’ve got a poor posture or there’s something going on that’s not quite right with the swing yeah, if they’re all of that yeah posture and that’s it.

Denika: 9:38

And if you, think like when you’re out. How many hours are you out for when you play golf?

Nish: 9:42

yeah, I mean, you’re probably what you’re playing for four, four and a half hours, aren’t you? But actually swinging a club maybe 10 minutes the whole round. However you are, it’s jerky sometimes, yeah, and I suppose if your technique’s not right, you’re repeatedly doing the same thing wrong yeah so that’s another thing yeah and I suppose there’s also the argument that you might be getting. You’re doing it in really short, sharp bursts of exercise, that it’s cold again in between, and then you’re doing it again, then cold again, and that’s probably not good is it?

Denika: 10:13

yeah, and that’s it. It’s interesting that if you’re, I mean, would you warm up yourself normally if you go?

Nish: 10:18

I’m gonna get on to that, aren’t we? Because I’m a, as chris has found out now, I’m a rock up yeah very barely take a practice swing, and I just start right, okay um, but about four years ago, I found this guy online, as you do.

Nish: 10:36

This is all done online, isn’t it? You don’t actually see anybody. Why do I see an expert? Stupid. I found this guy online whose coaching was all about coaching older players how to play golf. Okay, um, and his he’s called Tom Seguto. If anybody wants to have a look at him, he’s. He’s brilliant. Yeah, but his whole, by the way, his whole shtick is he wants you to be able to use your body more. Yeah, rather than your arms and your elbows and things like that. You get your trunk, yeah, because you’ve got more that you can do with that and generate power with that, and then that’s repeatable and causes less injury. Yeah, that actually just yet beasted it with your arms and that makes perfect sense, because if you’re using all your shoulders, yeah bit like the tennis elbow in your shoulder.

Denika: 11:19

You’ve got four big tendons. You rotate a cuff yeah so if they’re getting inflamed and irritated, you can call it a shoulder impingement.

Nish: 11:27

It might be because you’re not using let’s just call it a shoulder impingement between friends, shall we?

Denika: 11:31

yeah, let’s call it a shoulder impingement, love it but if you, you know, if you’ve not got that good core strength in your tummy muscles, your back muscles, you are going to then be overcompensating potentially with a shoulder with an elbow. So yes, that’s really interesting actually that that was his approach, because yeah, yeah if you can generate that power from the core um, and that’s where pilates comes into it.

Nish: 11:52

yeah, well, I mean I think we should, we should, we should do that to be honest, because I mean I used to when I finished uni, me and my mate tom tom does our artwork. You know, we used to do yoga classes all the time and Pilates is different. Yeah, and why is Pilates different from yoga then?

Denika: 12:09

So I would say, because I love yoga and I would often go to yoga myself, yoga would be more maybe, for it’s still strengthening, but it’s more for mobility, Whereas Pilates the big focus is on improving core strength.

Nish: 12:23

Right.

Denika: 12:23

You’re breathing, so your core muscles are a bit like a cylinder, so you’ve got like a breathing muscle your diaphragm yeah and then you’ve got different layers, including, like your pelvic floor, your abdominal wall and your back. So if you think of your core a bit like a tin of beans all right okay yeah okay um. The idea behind pilates is you want to generate as much strength and endurance, so it’s not just about how strong your muscles are but, it’s how long can your muscles keep on working for?

Denika: 12:51

So I suppose it’s a bit like the Jorah Selbunny kind of analogy. And so with Pilates it’s all about trying to get you as strong as you can.

Nish: 13:04

So when you are doing other things then with the other muscle groups around there and you’re not compensating. Yeah, there’s no point just doing a short, sharp burst. Yeah, it needs to be repeatable doesn’t it?

Denika: 13:11

yeah, okay, and muscles as well. So you’ve got what they call slow twitch muscles, and fast twitch yeah I feel like I’m going back into my first time I’ve heard that phrase the sprinters.

Nish: 13:20

I think they do that with sprinters quite a lot. They say they have good fast twitch fibers and stuff like that.

Denika: 13:25

Right, okay so it’s important with any type of um training. You’re training for golf, you’re training for I don’t know football, whatever it’s utilizing the right muscle type. So you want to work both types of muscle effectively. So I suppose, when you’re doing your swing, yeah you might be that’s correct. Swing swing there we go um and I said when you’re?

Nish: 13:46

swinging. It’s definitely the wrong kind of podcast when you are doing your swing.

Denika: 13:54

Um, it could be that you’re using a bigger proportion of the fast switch muscles.

Nish: 13:57

So it’s just, yeah, it’s interesting just as a physio, even though I don’t know much about golf yeah and it’s just interesting, the different components of fitness right, okay, so pilates would definitely be a better thing to do, because you’re working on the core strength, and that’s golf specific, I mean, or sports specific, maybe that’s it. It’s obviously all still good for you, isn’t it?

Denika: 14:17

exactly, and the thing is it could be that you do pilates and you do a bit of yoga, and sometimes when you go to the classes, there is a bit of an overlap so yeah yeah, there’s kind of separate exercises.

Denika: 14:26

You will get a little bit of overlap between them and, but especially the pilates I teach is like physio led pilates right so a lot of people who will come to my class they say, oh, I’ve never done pilates and they think of the real traditional classical pilates where people are doing crazy things. It’s like no, it’s beginners, it’s suitable for everyone and especially I like to make it so it’s inclusive for people yeah, so in that class.

Denika: 14:49

There’s people with arthritis, there’s people who might have had surgery on their hips, so it’s quite a mixed bag. Yeah, and I think that’s what I find interesting as well, because I think, as a physio, our big job is promoting physical activity yeah exercise, movement, wellness, and I think you should be able to.

Denika: 15:05

That’s my job to be able to adapt. So if you come in and you’re like, oh, you know what my elbow’s playing up today, I can’t do this, it’s like, right, okay, we’ll always find a different exercise for you to do so, so you can do something, yeah, and we can modify it.

Denika: 15:18

Um, because that’s the way it should be. People shouldn’t be restrained from exercising because they’ve got an injury. It’s like, actually we want to keep you going. So if you come in to see me now and you’re like you know what, I’m playing golf at the weekend, it’d be like, right, okay, these are little things you can do. Try buying one of those costs there’s a few stretches that you might want to do so especially.

Denika: 15:36

We’ll get on to that. But, like making sure before you set off, a few simple stretches might be enough to just keep yeah yeah as well.

Nish: 15:43

So yeah, it’s interesting okay I mean I’m definitely going to get a. I mean I might as well yeah it makes complete sense because I can. I can use my amazon prime account then, um, but what, what got you in? I mean, obviously you’re a physio and I get, and your pilates is based around more a physio concept than just let’s just do pilates, yeah, um, obviously, you know, seven years ago you’d have gone. I really want to do this. Like what, what made you do that?

Denika: 16:06

I think it was because I’d been using it with patients on a one-to-one level, um in the nhs, um in work, and then one of the physios who are what we’ve said. You know you should do this for us at lunchtime. This would be a really nice thing to do. So I was like, right, fair enough. And then the way we are in the NHS obviously we’re not busy, you’re back to back with patients, so it’s actually quite nice. At lunchtime I went into the gym at work. I give them a Pilates class and they were like this is really good. So then I thought you know what this would be good for the wider healthcare people as well, not just in our physio department right so I got in touch with occupational health and I said um, I’m a pilates instructor now as well as being a physio.

Denika: 16:47

I’ve done a bit of taster session. Do you think that other people within the hospital might enjoy it? And they were like what a great way, because we’re always treating the nurses with bad backs from patients over the years and so yes, so basically my first um proper teaching role was in work for the staff, so they come after work right do some pilates, do a bit of meditation, relaxation yeah and they go off then home.

Denika: 17:09

And it was quite nice because people used to feedback and say I’ve actually got home, got in the house, made dinner, sat down and quite relaxed, whereas normally they’d be rushing home and still, kind of you know, have some floating around from work in the head. And and then I did that for probably about six months and then I thought you know what. I want to take this wider.

Denika: 17:28

I want to do it in the local area and so yeah, so basically there’s two, two ladies in my class who’ve been coming since the very first class and I was like and they still come now and they still.

Denika: 17:38

It’s amazing, and I was like are you not bored of me? And they were like no, we love it, we really enjoy it. And I think the nice bit as well, because I don’t take it too. You know, obviously it’s professional, but I don’t take myself too seriously. Um, it’s a bit of a social thing as well, for people so before you know they come into class and they’ll have a little chat and a catch up. And what have you been doing this week?

Denika: 17:55

yeah so yeah, so for me that’s nice, just lovely, and you know people say you’re crazy, you’re going from doing your nhs job then like going to pilates and not getting into the nine o’clock and I was like it doesn’t feel like work I think it’s lovely in life if you can find something a bit like you with this, with a passion and something oh no, this is a nightmare although I have seen behind the scenes today gotta gotta get all set up.

Nish: 18:18

You know, gotta work with jtc, yeah all that gym I’ve got to put it with chris and his hissy fits, you know, yeah, no, I know what you mean. Somebody said today, like the old phrases, like you know, if you find something you love, you’ll never work another day in your life.

Denika: 18:32

And that’s absolutely right, yeah and I think I’m very lucky with both my physio profession and with the pilates is. Don’t get me wrong, we all have days, don’t be like, oh god, that was a bit of a day, but most of the time it’s like actually I’m going in to do something. I’ve got an amazing team around me.

Denika: 18:46

I’m going in to do something that I genuinely enjoy and the the best satisfaction is. I remember before I finished for mat leave I had a man with back pain and he was a bit dismissive and he was like I don’t see what these exercises are going to do and I said you know what?

Nish: 18:58

so hang on. He’s, he’s paid to come to your class and then he’s like I don’t don’t see what the point is, but that makes no sense, does it really?

Denika: 19:05

and I said do you know what? Just give it a go. And if it’s not for you. Not for you don’t need to come back, but just sit and do you know what? After a few sessions then he was just like oh, actually I’ve not been as stiff and I’ve, you know, can get up in the morning and I’m doing a few exercises at home because he was work from home.

Denika: 19:21

So it’s like right, you know what, set a little alarm and every so often, get up, go make a brew while you’re waiting for the kettle to boil. You can do a few of these exercises yeah um, and that gives me great. You know, it’s just so lovely to be able.

Nish: 19:33

It’s nice to turn a non-believer into a believer, isn’t it? I think that’s always a good kind of a perk of the job, I suppose, isn’t it sometimes? Yeah, I just I don’t get that mindset. There’s loads of people are like that, aren’t they? They’re like well, this isn’t for me. My mum was an example. She went to see a hypnotherapist about something I think she used to grind her teeth.

Nish: 19:50

She went to see a hypnotherapist about grinding her teeth because it was really bad and my dad had paid for a course of six sessions upfront, so I mean, got a bit of a discount for doing that. And after the first session my dad went to go pick her up and again, they’d finished already, they were sat in the lounge and my dad comes in and he just goes here’s your cash. She won’t go under Like that. And because my mum had gone in like just completely closed off, this is not for me. And he’s like she’s just sat there and she was Like, she was just rigid, just tense, like oh, what, like, oh, what’s gonna happen? She just won’t have it, yeah, and we’re just all like mom, what are you doing? He’s gonna help you. Like this is this is good for your team, no, no, no, there’s got to be a better way to do. It. Is that? You found the guy? What’s your problem? Just go ahead with it, but you can be like that oh, and it’s really interesting.

Denika: 20:37

So there was a study done in the physio world. So if you believe that your physio or the physio itself is going to help and get you better, so if you’ve got more of a positive outlook you are probably more often than not you’re going to get better, whereas if you go in with that negative mindset you’ve not got faith in whoever’s treating you, then you’re probably not going to get better.

Nish: 20:58

There’s a name for this, danika. Yeah, it’s called confirmation bias.

Denika: 21:01

Did you know that? No, I didn’t know that.

Nish: 21:02

So you look for things that confirm what your bias is, ah, and that then sends you into that spiral or the other way so if you like, going this isn’t gonna work, this isn’t gonna work, yeah, the second that something doesn’t quite go right, I told you. Told you that’s it. Yeah, it’s just, that’s it, I knew it. And then you close yourself off and things don’t happen.

Nish: 21:21

So, yeah, there’s a bit of science to it yeah, try to use that with the kids, so okay. So you know, obviously, getting into that kind of right, I want to, I want to do this and I imagine you know we used to really enjoy the five minutes at the end, yeah, you lay down, feel yourself sinking into the floor, take a deep breath, all that kind of thing. Yeah, I was always more like petrified of that because I was like my mum at that point, like stiff as a board, like not because I was like I snore yeah, and I knew exactly if I go to sleep I’d snore.

Denika: 21:49

I just knew it I think it’s the best. It’s a measure of someone having a great class there was a there was a time, one time, where I just wanted to and I was like right, everybody.

Denika: 22:02

And then I was kind of like we’ve done the meditation. I was like trying to bring them back into the room and I was like, if you just gently want to open your eyes, you just gently want to sit up, and there was a lady right at the back of class snoring. So she was there with a friend, so a friend was poking her.

Denika: 22:17

Nothing, nothing, absolutely god she was in a trance, she was in a trance and I was like just gently, and when everybody’s ready, and she was in a trap and I was like just gently, and when everybody’s ready, and she was just still flat out asleep. So I walked over and I was like it’s okay, now you come on, love your time I was like no, no, I was like I’ve taken it as a complete compliment yeah and she said oh, I’m so sorry.

Denika: 22:39

She’s like I’ve a mad busy day and I just went off into my own little world and I was like brilliant, yeah, and actually that’s what you, my own little world, and I was like brilliant, yeah, and actually that’s what you’re supposed to do.

Nish: 22:46

Yeah, I was like that was a big day we did, um, so yeah, that’s just reminding me actually. So I did, I did a training course like this so many years ago, like my old company and another couple emerging in beauty industry, so it was all like all young girls and whatever. Yeah, so me as a manager, like we, you know, we, we took part in all the training with everybody, just didn’t do the hands-on stuff. So part of the session was you did uh, it was an mlp master neuro-linguistic programming, yeah, and he was like he said oh, so we, we’re gonna get your mind into the right frame of mind, you know, for the training. So it’s all right and close your eyes. And it was like training. It started at eight o’clock in the morning but I’d travel two hours to get there, so I was up from five. So I was tired on the way there. This is my excuse. Anyway, I was tired on the way there get there and it’s like right now, close your eyes.

Nish: 23:36

So you know, you’ve been, you’ve been up three hours driving and you’re like, oh, this is great, right okay I’m going, so he’s obviously then he started, like you know, and he’s using his nlp terms and he’s probably using the right words to send you into a bit of a deeper sleep, sort of thing.

Nish: 23:48

So I’m just like, yeah, yeah fine, I knew it like straight away. I knew it. I’m like I’m properly asleep here, I’m fine. I was like I’m not gonna wake up now, just leave it. Just leave it anyway. I came around eventually like I didn’t know what happened. I came around and as I opened my eyes, everyone was just stood around me and I was like, oh, what’s happened here? You know, I think you’re enjoying your relaxation time. I was like. I was like what is it like 10 o’clock?

Denika: 24:16

or something, now the whole morning’s gone. Why is?

Nish: 24:18

everyone stood around me. But yeah, that’s, that’s. Uh, I probably should have nightmares about that reason.

Denika: 24:23

A bit of a bad experience that.

Nish: 24:24

But yeah, I used to love that.

Denika: 24:26

That five minutes was great, you know I think life is so busy and the world is so hectic that we often we’re so busy going from one thing to another, especially with kids, babies you don’t often find time for yourself, and that’s, that’s some of the feedback to you know, if anyone ever thinks, oh, you know, pilates isn’t for me, or yoga’s not for me, go and try it, I always think, go and try it yeah, and if you try it and it’s not for you, fine, you’ll find something else.

Denika: 24:50

I think just going and having time for yourself even me as a physio and a pilates instructor and sometimes it’s like, oh, I need to do some exercise today, right? Well, cara’s upset, she needs feeding, I’ll do it after that. Oh wait, then I need to put the washing on if you’re trying to do stuff at home. We’ve got a house, we’ve got two bikes, three bikes in our house, wait whose bikes are they?

Denika: 25:10

a load, my better of a half, just that 25 bike helmets as well, but we’ve got all this equipment. Yeah, you don’t often find the time because there’s always something to do this house, what to do, so I think sometimes going off to a class can be really nice way. We’ve got an hour of solid time, yeah, to yourself and to focus on that area as well.

Nish: 25:32

So yeah, you do online stuff as well, don’t you?

Denika: 25:34

yes, I have a youtube channel. Pilates with danika um so yeah. So again, if you didn’t want to fork out for a class, go, we’ll throw a link up. Go on and have a watch of the videos, and there’s loads of different videos I’ve put up there over the years you’re dying to do this link in the like and subscribe, like and subscribe.

Nish: 25:58

Um, all right, okay, no, I think it’s brilliant. I mean to do that on top of your normal work as well, and actually I didn’t know that about the story of how that kind of evolved. So it’s really nice that you know it’s adding something for your colleagues and actually people want to do this. So so, let’s, let’s do a little bit more definitely wonderful, and that’s why you’re here. Um, so okay, you mentioned you do see a few golfers and things like that. So obviously, eventually, shoulder, yeah, can be a common injury. I mean, I used to before.

Nish: 26:24

I obviously started using this different swing type yeah I used to come off the golf course and my lower back was killing me like I’m talking full-on, like I can’t walk, like I’m just gonna just need to sit down for 10 minutes and I’ll gradually make myself up to the way to the shower and that’ll sort it out. So back, I imagine, is a massive massive, so back pain in itself.

Denika: 26:46

So eight percent of the population will have back pain at some point in their life. Eight percent 80 oh 80, 80, yeah, so it’s so common. Now that will vary from um. My brother actually a few weeks ago was um, was ringing me because he picked up their pug dog and he was like my back’s gone and I’m like what have you?

Nish: 27:06

been doing.

Denika: 27:06

He’s like picked up the pug dog, I was like all right and like don’t get me wrong, it’s a chunky dog however however, it is a pug dog.

Denika: 27:13

It’s not as if he’s been doing the strongest man, isn’t it with the big stones or whatever? Um, but yeah, it can be something benign that that sets it off, so it can be back pain is classified as is it a muscle problem. Right, you’ve got lots of discs in the spine as well, so you can have an inflammation of the disc, and that tends to be quite local.

Denika: 27:30

You can get sciatica, which is a right pain in the bum, literally so that nerve travels from your back through your buttock, down the back of the leg all the way down to the foot, and you often get pins and needles and numbness with that right and I suppose like tiger woods is an example like it was interesting as a physio, seeing what happened with him so you can probably clear this up a little bit now.

Nish: 27:51

So with tiger woods the key going about is I’d like surgery to fuse some vertebrae together. Yeah, I mean, that doesn’t sound like it’s a healthy thing to do to me, to the lay person, I suppose.

Denika: 28:05

But it’s interesting because I think, depending on so obviously I work in the NHS, so there’s different schools of thought between NHS physios, private physios, um. But for him it must have got to a point where his discs must have had quite a lot going on for them to do a surgery. But yeah, when they fuse it, they basically it means so normally the way that your your spine is, you’ve got your vertebrae stacked one on top of another yeah and then your discs are like your jelly material in between yeah, and they can go.

Nish: 28:34

You can move around, you can basically rotate.

Denika: 28:36

You can side flex, flex forwards, backwards, yeah, and your discs are made of strong stuff. So I think the other thing and this is like a bit that I kind of get frustrated with is sometimes people can catastrophize, so you might see some people that’s a good word catastrophize.

Denika: 28:54

So you I like a good big word yeah some schools of thoughts are oh, be careful with your back, you shouldn’t bend, you shouldn’t twist right, do this like and treat it like glass sort of treat it like glass and it’s like that’s the worst thing you can do, because the the disc material is filled with with liquid, so you’ve got what they call the nucleus in the middle right and then you’ve got rings of cartilage, a bit like if you cut a tree down yeah, yeah, yeah okay, that’s what the disc material is like right so it needs movement to lubricate can you tell how old a human is if you cut their spinal cord and count the rings, or just ask him?

Nish: 29:28

it’s probably easier to do that, isn’t it?

Denika: 29:31

imagine slicing a loaf of bread and my patients always feel like why is she going on about bread when I’m here with bat pit?

Nish: 29:36

yeah, yeah, I didn’t know right.

Denika: 29:38

Okay, so I suppose then you got to keep that, that supple, and exactly so if you’re always holding yourself in a bit of a certain position because you know people say, oh, you need to always stand up with good posture. I mean, I’ve probably been sat here like this oh yeah, I mean I am.

Denika: 29:53

It’s like there’s no one good posture, and so it’s very much about like with tiger woods. You wonder, like over the years I don’t know, this is me going out on a limb here. Did he get advice? That was a bit cautious, a bit protectionary it’s interesting.

Denika: 30:06

But once they do that spinal fusion, the disc material of the self, they remove it and then they’ll use like a metal cage to fuse that area. I mean there’s loads of different ways of doing it but essentially then, rather than you having that kind of freer movement, you’re going to be. So. When I’ve seen patients have a spinal fusion, they do quite often for neck issues, for discs in the neck.

Nish: 30:27

It’s almost then like they’ll get over compensatory things in time, because if one area is fixed yeah something else has to give so presumably that means if he’s had that in his lower back, for instance yeah, that presume. I presume that means that then he can’t bend forwards, backwards as as freely yeah, definitely the twisting disappears, yeah, yeah he’s had a couple of those surgeries, yeah he’s had a few.

Denika: 30:50

So then your hips are potentially going to be an area for more movement. So, yeah, so it’s very interesting, wow, and I mean he’s, you know with, with bat pity, there’ll be someone like my brother who’s picked up the dog and it’s, it’s just pulled a muscle and it’s a bit irritated which brother, by the way, you can name?

Nish: 31:05

check him yeah jordan, jordan, we know about your story now. Jordan, we know. Yeah, don’t be trying to pull the wool over our eyes. Oh, it’s really heavy lead pipe, that one.

Denika: 31:15

Yeah and it’s interesting because, um, he was seeing a private physio and, um, he was like you know, you need to be really careful. Blah, blah, blah. And then my brother was like well, actually we’re having a new kitchen, so we spent like a few hours and he went. It actually felt better after being in the kitchen and I was like, exactly, because you can’t wrap yourself up with cotton wool obviously when it’s an acute flare up, take it a bit easier. But I was like movement is motion is lotion I like motion is lotion.

Nish: 31:45

There’s another.

Denika: 31:46

There’s a t-shirt there you go, that’s it. Get that on a hoodie, that’s on the new merch range coming soon but, um, I think you know fair enough, when you’re in an acute flare you’re not going to do a marathon. But it’s that thing of knowing that it’s safe to exercise even if you’re getting a little bit of pain we normally say 10 out of 10 is the worst pain on earth yeah up to like a four or five out of ten.

Denika: 32:07

So with your elbow, if you did your your round of golf and then the next day it was like a nine out of ten, then I say, right, nish, four hours out on the course is probably a bit too much. Next time you go out, do half play faster yeah, get it over in some way yeah, it’d be do half of what you did yeah and then you might say to me do you know?

Denika: 32:25

I did half and it was a four out of ten perfect. The tendon itself needs that bit of exercise yeah but not to the point where it’s creating a load of inflammation yeah, okay, like in the pain.

Nish: 32:35

So keep the, keep the blood flowing yeah but don’t strain it. Yeah, okay, I like that. So I mean, so bring it back to backs, sort of thing, and you know so. So what? What kind of things would you expect a golfer to to have with their back? I mean, what’s that? It used to feel like a crunching pain in your lower back. It’s like ages to loosen up, yeah, and like I don’t know what’s going on there.

Denika: 32:58

Then yeah, so again with yourself. So you’ve got the discs. So it could be the disc itself is getting a bit inflamed and irritated. Yeah, you’ve also then got the little joints that they call the facet joints right. They’re basically stacked up in the spine as well. So, sometimes it might be they’re getting a little bit stiffer Right. So again it’s. It’s very individual.

Denika: 33:18

Yeah people can have it, but most of the time I think it’s something like 95% of back pain will be what they call non-specific lower back pain. So it’s the muscle, the joint and something harmless. There’s five percent of back pain. No, let me do a math. Yeah, 95 for five years.

Nish: 33:37

You can tell 96 of all statistics I’m made up on the spot.

Denika: 33:42

Yeah, okay I’m a good physio, but maths isn’t my fault don’t ask me to add up. That’s why they have calculators on the phones, um, but this is, this is it’s really rare, but basically, and there’s a condition called cauda equina syndrome so it’s always good when we’re speaking about back. So if you go to your doctor you see a physio will always ask you and are you having any problems with your bladder or bowel, are you getting any numbness around genital area, back passage? And people look at you think why are you asking this?

Denika: 34:10

yeah because it’s a condition. It’s so rare it’s like one percent of all back pain will ever be cauda requiriner. But it’s basically where, if the disc is bulging to a point where it’s compressing the bladder and bowel nerves, it can cause issues so and if you were getting any of those symptoms, we’d say go to A&E, because A&E can access the MRI scans and the quickest and just scan it straight away and check everything out and so yeah, so you know it’s really rare that someone like yourself who’s out playing golf you know you’re probably never going to get those symptoms- it’s just always good to be aware of that.

Denika: 34:43

But yeah, for yourself it could have been that it was a bit of non-specific lower back pain and warming up would be a useful way to minimize that from happening.

Denika: 34:52

So no, not warming up and it doesn’t need to be, so some people can warm up and spend half an hour. It’s funny now because my brother I’ve given my brother more exercises, so he’s got a dodgy shoulder, so before he and he’s got two kids as well, so before he actually does what he wants to do, he’s spending 20 minutes now doing the shoulder warm up, doing his back warm up, don’t interrupt me.

Nish: 35:11

It’s my exercising time.

Denika: 35:12

I’ve got to warm up properly but he has said it has made a big difference there. Right, he’s not had well, apart from the dog, he’s not had any problems for a while well, if jordan can do it exactly exactly, um, so yeah, so I think with yourself it’d be interesting. We should do it as an experiment, you should do yeah I mean it must be.

Nish: 35:30

I am getting signed up to doing a warm-up now because chris is like I’m pointing because that’s where he normally sits. But um, chris is not, is a? He’ll spend an hour warming up and hitting golf shots and whatever, just to get limber and loose. And yeah, I, I don’t.

Nish: 35:45

I have never done so because in my head I’ve always been like, if I start nailing it, then I feel like I’m using up all my good shots okay and then also I like, if I, if I’m not, then all these other things are going to creep into my head and then that’s my day ruined, sort of thing. But I mean, look, I’m 44 years old now, I’ll be 45 next year. I’ve got another nine years at least, doing this challenge. I’d like to play golf for the rest of my life. So actually, just whatever I can do now is probably a good thing to do, isn’t it?

Nish: 36:17

There you go, I could be your sponsored physio, just whatever I can do now is probably a good thing to do, isn’t it? I know that’s it yeah, let’s to get like. I have to get one of those tour de france buses. Yeah, take this round. No EPO going on or anything like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s it, yeah, yeah that’s the dream yeah, I am, uh, I am now. That’s. All I’m thinking about is how do I buy a bus? Yeah I know a friend who can actually convert the bus for me.

Denika: 36:45

Actually, oh, there we go. Yeah, there we go. There might be one that’s available for you right now absolutely right.

Nish: 36:52

So so if I, if I, then so okay, let’s, let’s rewind to far four years ago and I’d come back and it was just like backs in pain, yeah, you know, and I’m, because there’ll be loads of golfers. I know there’s loads of golfers, I play with them, you know, and they’re like my back was terrible for a couple of days and it’s fine now but I’ve just about recovered, but is there anything? Obviously this is difficult because it’s specific to that person. You don’t know what the cause is, but if somebody does come back from around a golf, yeah, and they’re really like bent over, doubling pain almost, and like they just kind of, is there anything they can do just to help loosen it up a little bit? Just, is there anything? That am I going simple?

Denika: 37:27

things would be heat. So generally hot bath, hot shower, hot water bottle, the little wheat pack you can put in the microwave. Get that on there, because a lot of the time that I can’t move is muscle spasm so it goes into quite an acute muscle spasm and pain is basically a protection, the body’s way and the brain’s way of protecting that area. So if you can get it warm, that normally will relax the area. Simple things like paracetamol don’t have to if you’re not someone’s taking tablets, but that can be useful. Ibuprofen they reckon it’s a bit of a again in the physio world a bit controversial. So if you’ve had it, yeah, because if you’ve had an acute injury, so basically when you hurt yourself, so for example, let’s say your tendon.

Denika: 38:07

Now yeah so when you first um hurt your tendon and it become a problem, you get what’s called the inflammatory response. So there’s what they call the stages of healing. So yeah um. In the first 72 hours, your body will produce chemicals that are inflammatory chemicals so their job at first. They do produce cytokines and all this is to make inflammation.

Nish: 38:30

Is it right?

Denika: 38:31

inflammation okay because it starts a cascade of healing right you’ve got like inflammatory response and then you’ve basically got the proliferative response, so that’s over a few weeks. Then new fibers. So basically when, when you injure yourself of a tendon problem, if you imagine, this is like your muscle fibers when you injure yourself. It gets frayed and spread out so, and it’s the language of it. So that’s interesting. You said frayed interesting. I love this, so people will come to see me.

Nish: 38:58

I’m digressing here now, but no, no people will come and see me we never take a direct route to anything here that you can, it’s all about rambling and going off on a tangent. I’m a good rambler.

Denika: 39:06

So when patients come to see me and they say, um, I’ve been to see a specialist and my spine is crumbling, almost like a nice cheese, that isn’t it a crumbling spy? And I always think that’s really interesting, the language that people are using what phrase are you and? I’m so mindful of that. So it’s like the tendon itself. If you say frame of a tendon, what does it make you think of?

Denika: 39:26

just all ripping apart and shredding and then do you think, if you thought that you’d go off and do what you want to do, you’re going to be a bit more now you’re going to be guarded, aren’t you?

Nish: 39:33

you’re going to think I need to protect it.

Denika: 39:35

It so I remember, years ago, um, someone said to me oh, my tendon is like a rope that’s about to snap. And that is so fearful then, isn’t? It, I’m not doing anything with this arm because I don’t want it to snap, but what actually happens is you get little micro traumas.

Denika: 39:50

You get little micro traumas in that area. You then get your inflammatory mediators coming in so they basically cause inflammation in that area and then over time that starts healing and the idea of doing the exercise then and the physio way is, as it’s healing and you’re doing gentle strengthening exercises, those tendon fibers can realign and get the tensile strength back into it and get you back into what you have to do so that’s a bit of the science.

Nish: 40:14

But that’s like muscle training, weight training stuff anyway, isn’t it? You’re basically getting the muscle to in inverted commas injure itself and then it’s repairing stronger. That’s.

Denika: 40:24

That’s how it’s getting bulk as well, that’s it and it’s also it’s interesting so say, for example, so muscle, the normal mechanics of muscle is it breaks down and over 24 to 48 hours it repairs and rebuilds itself. So when you go to the gym you do a big session. You’re like I’m going for it.

Nish: 40:42

Yeah, I’ll go to the gym all the time. Danika, glad you noticed.

Denika: 40:47

Yeah, exactly I’m telling you, and so what actually happens then is people’s like bodybuilders yeah they’re breaking down muscle to rebuild it.

Denika: 40:55

Now what’s interesting is, and what I would always ask a patient is how often are you playing golf? So, say, you went out on monday and then you know it’s still a seven out of ten on wednesday and you go out and you go crazy and you’re not giving it enough time to rest and recover, right. So your recovery is really important as well, and there was a really interesting paper, so I did like a rehab module years ago and and they were talking about supplements because that’s the big thing, is that? What can I take?

Denika: 41:21

yeah, yeah, that’s the new thing and people will take whey powder and creatine. And actually they did this study and the man and I think he was like a dietician with like the olymp, one of the olympic teams, and what they worked out is you’ve got, so you’ve got protein, and then proteins broken down into amino acids in the body. So one of the amino acids is casein. And where do you find casein? Again, it sounds like a cocktail, doesn’t?

Denika: 41:44

it yeah yeah, um or a nice girl you’ve met on tinder yeah, potentially you swipe casein yeah you see, um it’s actually found in milk, so right and um you know not like cow’s milk yeah, so if you drink a glass of milk within half an hour of doing your bodybuilding, or your activity.

Nish: 42:07

That’s a good thing, that can help to promote the protein synthesis.

Denika: 42:10

That’s interesting, isn’t it? Something as simple and you could spend, like I know, my brother again, jordan, if he’s listening jordan’s getting rinsed, isn’t he? When, uh, back in the day, when he was into his bodybuilding, he would buy, like I remember, big tubs and stuff, yeah, yeah, yeah had to be measured and and my mum’s irish and mum was horrified because he used to measure butter and mum was like why is he?

Nish: 42:33

measuring butter.

Denika: 42:34

What’s that about?

Nish: 42:35

I was like he’s in his shredding phase now, when he’s trying to be good you don’t measure butter, just whack as much of it on your toaster as you can um, but yeah, who’d have thought something as simple as a glass of milk?

Denika: 42:46

it’s not brilliant. Remember that.

Nish: 42:47

No, brilliant that’s because that is absolutely mad, that like I wouldn’t yeah, I would have thought that with milk no yeah, so sorry, I digress though no, no, no, no, it’s all that all, it’s interesting that you talk about that kind of language, because you are right and people like to feel like my back was crunching and it is that kind of really negative language around it, isn’t it?

Denika: 43:06

And there’s a big link as well between and this is more for persistent pain. So it would be interesting because in sport they’ll have sports psychologists.

Nish: 43:14

Yeah.

Denika: 43:15

And so it would be interesting with Tiger tiger woods. I didn’t read loads of detail into what his treatment involved, but over time did he have positive language used or was it more fear-mongering? And and you just think, yeah, it’s interesting just the psychology around sport and yeah and there’s a big link as well between persistent pain.

Denika: 43:34

So if you’ve had an injury for up to three months, it’s classed as acute, subacute if you’ve had pain for more than three months, so it could be, you know, a year, two years, ten years. It’s more what we call persistent pain right and there’s a big link between um our thoughts, our emotions and mood really so in your body you produce what they call endorphins and I’m sure people have heard yeah endorphins.

Denika: 43:57

So it’s like I go for a facial the endorphins are released, I feel lovely and relaxed for it and but your endorphins. It’s basically endo meaning within an orphan, like morphine. So right opioids. So when we do something that makes us feel good, we produce endorphins, serotonin, and if you go for a run, you play golf you’ll get.

Nish: 44:17

Yeah, yeah, oh, definitely yeah it’s a.

Denika: 44:21

It’s a chemical that’s released in neurotransmitter in the brain, now in people with persistent pain. So if you imagine you’ve got someone telling you that your tendon is fraying and you know, be careful. You’re going to be a bit naffed off because you’re not playing your golf. You’re going to be scared to play golf, so you might stop doing it. That makes you a bit depressed and low in mood. Yeah and if it gets to a point and these again are extreme cases where that’s, then it’s not just your golf, it’s affecting you, can’t go to work.

Denika: 44:48

It’s affecting you with your children you can’t do stuff around the house. That then means that you’re in a point of stress, so rather than producing endorphins and serotonin and dopamine, your body’s more likely to produce any stress hormones like adrenaline cortisol yeah and what that does basically is I always imagine like pac-man okay so your brain has got your endorphins and your serotonin going around.

Denika: 45:09

When you’re in that negative mindset, your pac-man’s eating all that up and you’re producing more stress hormone wow and I think sometimes, when pain’s been going on for years and it’s affecting different aspects of people’s lives, yeah, and they get caught in this vicious cycle. Then, when you’re not sleeping, I mean if you don’t get a good night’s sleep, I don’t have a baby. You’re exhausted.

Denika: 45:27

It’s like a form of torture, isn’t it? So if you’re not sleeping well, you’re not doing the stuff you want to be doing and your body’s producing all that chemical stress side of things that can prolong the pain, then because you’re becoming a vicious cycle and you’re kind of becoming your own worst enemy, I suppose.

Nish: 45:41

Aren’t you there because you, yeah, there is the physical symptom there, but you’re not necessarily your own fault, but you know you are. You’re exacerbating that situation and yeah, and you get caught.

Denika: 45:53

It’s a cyclical yeah, that’s right cyclical effect, but it also for, you know, for the extreme cases, if people don’t get help with it, it can spiral then and affect other aspects of life.

Nish: 46:03

Yeah, so yeah, it must be difficult as a as a professional sports person, though, because you’re not only dealing with your own demons and you know that’s all you do. Yeah, so it’s not like you go. I mean, you know, if I don’t play for a couple of weeks, I’ve got plenty of other stuff to keep me occupied but that’s your job gosh, what you’re supposed to do, supposed to practice and supposed to keep up to date with everything yeah, um, but the pressure as well from your fans and your supporters but then also it’s the language around that.

Nish: 46:30

So the media then you know they’re all like his career’s over. Oh, he’s never gonna get to get back to what he was, and oh, that that injury or that surgery must mean he’s got to be careful you know, it’s sort of entering your mindset without even really thinking about it you know it would be.

Denika: 46:44

It’d be really interesting. I don’t know if there’s, if he’s spoken openly about it, but to see it from his side, I think tiger would have spoken about anything openly.

Nish: 46:52

He’s really just he’s all well. Historically anyway, he’s always been very closed door and like, yeah, I don’t let anybody in, don’t show any weakness. Yeah, that was his upbringing. I think that’s how he, how he did it. I think he’s getting a bit better now. I think he’s probably realized he’s the older statesman and actually just chill out a bit, just relax.

Nish: 47:09

But then being the way he was is why he was so damn good I mean, just today I reposted a story and it was um’d probably bore you with this, danica, but it was like a really iconic moment when he won the US Masters at Augusta and he’d like played his t-shirts over the back of the green and you know, he was in the playoff hole so he’s got to at least tie the hole to take it to the next hole. So he’s like everything and he’s off. There’s no, it’s gonna work here. And he it’s an impossible shot, sort of thing, and he, he chipped it in but it was it’s iconic because of a couple of things happened.

Nish: 47:45

It was like the situation, I think, that one in the masters in the end that shot, yeah. And then it’s when he I didn’t, I think kristen marco actually might, I’m not sure, but when the ball was rolling and it was like this the crowd and it’s a par three, so the crowd’s all around the green and it’s like this raw as the ball is rolling towards the hole, and then it’s it, then it slows down yeah and it was like, oh, it’s not gonna make it.

Nish: 48:07

It’s not gonna make it and like the the, it’s so iconic. It’s like spine tingly. Now, um, it’s tingling the fuse spine and it’s like the camera starts panning in on the ball, yeah, and then just as it it stops. It looks like it stops completely and then just starts rolling in and just as it rolls, again the nike tick appears oh wow, so it’s like you couldn’t, you couldn’t dream that and I could not made it they should have used that as a oh.

Nish: 48:33

I think they must have done. Yeah, but he could not. I mean, he was obviously an advertising man’s dream, wasn’t he? But that everyone’s like who writes these things for him? How has that happened in real life? Iconic moment yeah, yeah, so yeah, I don’t know. I don’t even know why I came up with that. Um, yeah, okay, digressive, yeah, absolutely, um, okay. So we’ve got a couple of little things here. We we touched upon plantar fasciitis before yeah now.

Nish: 48:59

My dad used to have that and it was awful for him. It was like he used to always say it’s like people stabbing his feet with broken glass and I was like it sounds horrible. And then I started getting it. Oh gosh, and I’ve just had it recently, yeah, and it was like I mean I couldn’t walk yeah, it can be really that bad, yeah, really severe, and so what do you do about that? I mean, first off, what’s Actually for anybody who doesn’t know, I suppose maybe describe a plantar fasciitis. Yeah, yeah.

Denika: 49:25

So you’ve got basically the sole of your foot, you’ve got the plantar fascia, so it’s a piece of tissue, so basically it attaches at the heel.

Denika: 49:39

So a common area of pain would be like around the heel, underneath it, especially like the inside portion of the heel. Yeah, that’s where it attaches, so that can get quite sore and then it basically runs from your heel down to the base of your toes. So the job of it is a shock absorber. So the job of that piece of fascia, piece of tissue, is to absorb shock. So it’s a common, you know I’d see people who are athletic get it, but also just general day-to-day people yeah, I’m not athletic.

Nish: 50:02

Yeah, general, I mean, I’m your average very, very immobile sedentary lifestyle person. If I can get it, anybody can get it and again.

Denika: 50:13

It’s interesting because people come in and they say the most classic sign of it is oh, I get up in the morning and as I’m getting out of bed, I can’t put weight through my foot and that’s when it was such a sharp pain, really excruciating pain.

Denika: 50:28

Some people can get mild cases, but most of the time I suppose in physio we’re going to see the people are really struggling and it’s really severe first thing in the morning and as you walk around and you warm up it tends to get a little bit easier and so there’s lots of different causes behind it.

Nish: 50:43

Big thing is um foot posture, so if you’re a little bit more flat-footed, foster foster foot posture foot posture yeah, because, like I mean, you know, it was your advice and it was like wear trainers around the house, yeah, so walking barefoot, because wearing slippers and stuff like that, they’re all flat, aren’t they?

Denika: 51:03

Women wearing slippers, women wearing the little ballet pumps, anything that doesn’t give you the medial arch support Right. So especially that walking barefoot. So obviously you know be barefoot at times, but if it’s particularly bad, wearing something with a bit more support can be helpful. People always say, oh, what are the best trainers there’s? There’s no such thing as like the best trainer, and I know different shops do like your gait analysis and check your running technique. Listen, it’s one of those.

Denika: 51:28

If you want to go and do it, fine but, I always say to people um try your initial things to try would be um rolling. Where’s your golf ball?

Nish: 51:38

yes, yeah, special golf ball. This is so uh for those not being able to able to see this. This is my uh, my contentious now holding one golf ball right. Didn’t realize it would be contentious. It turns out it is contentious. People keep doing that, like questioning whether I did it or not. Um, and it’s got my face on it, so feel free to there we go, roll that. I don’t want to stand on your face no, no, don’t, please don’t stand on my face. Yeah, it’s not what we’re here to do oh dear.

Denika: 52:08

But yeah, if you imagine, if this is your foot, what you do is you start off at the heel and you’d roll it through the center of the foot and it’s. It’s basically like massaging that area and then you can basically spend about a minute rolling it forwards and backwards. If you find a little spot that’s quite sore, do a few little circles on it and and it’s a really nice way of massaging along that area, because initially plantar fasciitis, again the itis is there, that inflammation inflammation right, yeah, yeah, so in the acute stage.

Nish: 52:36

You know that I don’t know what the, the.

Denika: 52:38

It is right, okay yeah, so you get that inflammatory response to begin with, and sorry I didn’t finish about the whole inflammatory and ibuprofen sorry yeah, I’ll quickly go over that. So basically we’ll cut yeah, in we’ll go back to go back to in um the first three days of an injury, and this is any injury.

Denika: 52:59

Yeah, if you take hyperprofen, it’s basically slowing down your body’s natural healing response right, okay so, especially like I remember I had a patient who had fracture and this consultant was really specific of like no anti-inflammatories because they don’t want to stop the body from doing what it naturally should naturally do.

Nish: 53:17

Yeah, yeah, okay so again, you know so you heard it here first from an nhs physio no ibuprofen for the first three days. Just load up on all of that missed ibuprofen straight after three days.

Denika: 53:28

That we’re saying don’t do that, don’t do that.

Nish: 53:34

So that’s basically what you said yeah, okay. So you mean yeah, you You’re stopping a natural process.

Denika: 53:40

The body is fascinating and I think your body is so good Generally. You know things can go not quite to plan, but your body will generally heal itself as long as you, you know, are kind to yourself. Give yourself a little bit of time to slow down a bit when you’re injured, but not go into the end of extreme and rest in too much. Generally speaking, your slow down a bit when you’re injured, yeah, but not going to the nth extreme and resting too much. Generally speaking, your body will get there with it. Um, but yeah, plantar fasciitis. I would say big tips for self-care would be use your golf ball for a little bit of massage, and calf stretches can be really helpful as well.

Denika: 54:11

So just gentle calf stretches and then footwear, so I know you guys will have to wear golf shoes yeah, yeah so it could be something as simple as just getting a bit of foam insole in there right along with a bit of arch support. Yes, and just to platform golf shoes because you’ll be out for again if you’re telling you what, though, like golf, golf.

Nish: 54:30

Shoe technology now is is unbelievable, like there used to be time when I was younger and people older than me like they were just leather brogues yeah that’s what it was, with some spikes at the bottom like now.

Denika: 54:43

You know, I’ve got some amazing like nike and alias cushion ones and like it’s about the better than my normal running trainers like and I suppose if you’re ever trying the self-care things and then it wasn’t helping, ask your gp to refer you to physiotherapy or podiatry so you can buy stuff that are off the shelf. But if you want anything, I’ve tried buying insoles, I’ve done some stretches, still not getting better. Don’t suffer in silence. Get them to refer you to podiatry and they’ll look at making insoles that are specific for you I didn’t know you could do that, right, okay access podiatry and physiotherapy, vgp.

Denika: 55:18

Some um areas will have like a self-referral so you don’t have to see the gp right just ring up and basically refer yourself. Yeah, and, but use your gp as a contact and for accessing services as well. Um, and yeah, and and again, there’s strengthening exercise that can be done, so like going up and down on your tiptoes yeah, it’s a nice way to seen something on instagram and it’s like, uh, putting a towel under both your, your feet yeah then using your toes to crawl like gather the towel up that’s quite a good one.

Denika: 55:47

Yeah, because basically we want to stretch out that area. So again, you can use like your thumb, if you don’t want to use a golf ball, if it’s a bit too painful, use your phone I mean, if you want a golf ball with my face and it just contacts me and you can have one, it’s not a problem good stress reliever, yeah yeah, kick his face, come on.

Nish: 56:03

Yeah, um, the uh, I’ll tell you what that, what worked for me, with a couple of things that worked for me. Yeah, I’m sorry to say, a bit of ibuprofen did work, but that was like after five days of just absolute agony, I need to do something. Yeah, um, but it’s obviously it was an accommodation of a couple of things, but then the, the yellow spiky ball that you gave me, that I would roll my foot on that really helped, because it really eased it up um and, I think, stretching

Denika: 56:27

did do it definitely, and the spiky balls you might have, like a tumble dryer ball or it’s just something. Basically, something smooth might be just enough because, the spiky ball. It’s like my. My people are like I love it or hate it, but it’s something that it’s a good pain.

Nish: 56:41

It just helps to do you know what it is? I’ll describe it exactly as that. It’s like you get your first first time you’re like, oh, that’s a bit much, isn’t it? And then you’re like, oh, and then all of a sudden you go to ah and you know what?

Denika: 56:55

you could be sat watching television and just be doing that.

Nish: 56:58

So it’s oh yeah, I used to annoy emma no one what you do with that ball again. Yeah, exactly, it’s great.

Denika: 57:07

Yeah, I mean, and I think with all of this, and I think the take-home thing for people is you don’t have to do anything too crazy or too expensive or elaborate. Just the simple things sometimes are enough to either help an existing injury or, hopefully, to prevent you from getting an injury yeah, getting an injury in the first place.

Nish: 57:26

Yeah, I mean that. Yeah, the plantar fascia and actually, the more I talk about it, like when I’m playing golf and things like that, the more other people go.

Nish: 57:34

Yeah, actually I’ve had really common or my dad’s had it, you know, whatever, and it’s just kind of like a, you know, like it’s a. It is a thing people know about this stuff. Yeah, in the in the musculature skeletal physiotherapy world, it’s very, very obvious thing to do. Um, all right, okay. So I mean, we all really probably do want to know, because we are coming up to it’s the dead time now for golfers. Right, you can. I’ve said it a few times on the podcast and you know I probably will say a few times coming up with a challenge. You know we want to play these courses. I want to play the hundred best in the country.

Nish: 58:08

Yeah, we’ve got to do 10 a year, like we might have to do some winter golf yeah I love winter golf a little bit cold, crisp morning but like this november december period, yeah, it’s just wet as well and nobody really wants to battle the mud. So you just go through. And then christmas is coming around the corner, so you just kind of like go, oh right, we’re not going to be playing that much. Yeah, how do we keep I mean we in inverted commas again, like as the golfing community? Yeah, how do we keep ourselves a little bit in in shape? What should we do?

Denika: 58:45

it’s a good question. So there’s activity guidelines. So for adults in the uk and people going out and doing this research and basically anyone and over the age of 18 should be doing 150 minutes of activity through the week through the week.

Nish: 59:03

Yeah, right, okay it sounds like a lot yeah but actually it’s not even 30 minutes a day, is it?

Denika: 59:09

there you go so you can break it down. So if it feels like it’s a bit too much, a 30 minute walk and in terms of physical activity doesn’t have to be the gym. You know, jim’s not everyone’s cup of tea, not jim mcclellan, obviously he’s a lovely man.

Nish: 59:22

He’s not everyone’s cup of tea. I don’t think I’ve ever been told and described as that jim’s not everybody’s cup of tea.

Denika: 59:30

Yeah, he certainly isn’t I know that wow, so yeah, activity that feels like another t-shirt coming as well.

Nish: 59:39

To be honest, hi, I’m jim, I’m not. Yeah, you could do right. I forget tom, we don’t need him anymore. Hi, I’m jim, I’m not. Everyone’s good, I’m gonna get on to him straight away after this oh, dear poor jim, sorry jim, um.

Denika: 59:55

So yeah, it doesn’t have to be the gym. It could be that you know you, actually you’ve got an exercise bag that’s got a load of clothes hanging off it as a clothes made and yeah, just that off, you can get on there a walk. So with physical activity, you know people don’t think as walking has been exercise, but with the activity you need to be getting hot, sweaty and out of breath and you still want to be able to keep a conversation. So people are like, well, what counts as being out of breath?

Denika: 1:00:17

obviously, if you’re a bit like oxygen, then you’re probably working a bit too hard yeah and back it off a bit yeah, ease off a little bit, but just going for a good power walk, bit of cycling, make someone who’s into swimming and anything at all counts as that 150 minutes, even if you’re vigorously hoovering or doing housework or out in the garden is there any other way to hoover the leaker?

Nish: 1:00:39

that’s the question. Get out, come on vigorous hoovering and so yeah.

Denika: 1:00:50

So again, you want to make sure, because with your, with your golf obviously you do a lot of walking you want to keep your cardiovascular. So cardiovascular is your heart and your lung capacity.

Nish: 1:00:59

So it’s really important that you’re keeping that up in some way shape or form I think I mean a lot of people play golf precisely because it is that, yeah, you know it’s four or five hours out. I mean, you know, obviously it’s the game itself. You’re there with your friends, or that kind of thing but yeah you know you walk in. We we played a course uh might be in sinith actually, first one we came off and and then I was like no, I’m on watch, I get a distance counter and it was just like you’ve walked 10 miles wow, all right, and I did not expect it to be that distance and you go.

Nish: 1:01:33

Actually, that’s that, that’s a fair click.

Denika: 1:01:35

So if you think and I always say this to someone who comes to see me in work if on average you’re doing 10 miles, you’ve got to think, then right. So say right, it’s November time now and I know you like to play out in the winter seasons, but just say you weren’t, so someone’s kind of stopped playing golf, i’t know.

Denika: 1:01:54

November, then they’re not going back to maybe springtime yeah if you’ve not been walking and keeping that up, you’re going to go back into it. You’re dead excited to get back into it. So you think oh, I’ll play twice a week this week, I’ll go again next week. Before you know it, then that’s where these little injuries can creep up on you right, okay, that’s interesting yeah conditioning going, and so, yeah, so it again. It doesn’t have to be that you’re doing something completely different out of your ordinary routine. It’s like, rather than drive to the supermarket, walk there, carry your shopping bag that act of carrying.

Denika: 1:02:26

We use the extensor tendons and your flexor tendons in carrying shopping. So it’s just coming up with little ways of….

Nish: 1:02:34

This is fascinating. This is fascinating. It really is, like you know, because it it is a challenge for for everyone. I mean, it generally is at christmas time and I’m it’s time. Anyway, I think, yeah, for you know, for golfers, you know you’re not gonna go to the range, it’s freezing no hands are gonna get too cold.

Nish: 1:02:49

You don’t want to do it? Yeah, you’re not. I mean, I don’t like going to a driving range at the best of times anyway, but there’s that. Yeah, you know you’re not really going to play unless you have access with indoor simulator. Actually, I’m playing on friday in indoor simulator.

Nish: 1:03:02

That’s been a revelation to me, because I can keep uh keep playing, but it condenses the time as well because you’re not walking in between and whatever. But yeah, you know you need to do something to just keep everything lingering it’s probably an extreme example, but you would never do, you know, london Marathon.

Denika: 1:03:21

You’d never just go for, like I don’t know, walk to your corner shop a few times and then rock up in London and be like, right, here we go, I’m going to do the London Marathon people probably have done that, haven’t they?

Nish: 1:03:31

it was Jade Goody, god rest her soul. But I think she did that, didn’t she? I think she said she just did a couple of training runs and tried to do a north run. I think she gave up after four miles or something.

Denika: 1:03:42

Yeah that’s it. Your body itself would just be screaming. What are you doing to me like? So yeah, I think the the way of kind of keeping yourself conditioned. It’s down to what I always say with an exercise it’s what you enjoy, because if you enjoy, it. That’s true with a friend you’re more likely to keep it up as a good habit.

Nish: 1:04:00

Um, so yeah, I think okay so just keep active, you think, is what you’re saying. Yeah, that’s the main, main mantra. I like that. I like that. I think that’s achievable for everyone, isn’t it? You know little things? Keep walking, whatever. Um, yeah, great, I mean. Yeah, I think that’s that’s given us some good, so good, food for right. I think I’ve avoided it long enough. Now I think I need to talk to my watcher. Be doing for my warm-up there we go.

Denika: 1:04:23

Should we do a demo?

Nish: 1:04:25

you can be my okay, let’s do it right. What do we need to do?

Denika: 1:04:31

right. So again, the big thing is making sure mobile’re mobile and we’re loosening up. So think of your warm-up a bit like wd-40 for the body, so we want to all right, we want to lubricate those joints yeah, move your mic a little bit.

Denika: 1:04:45

Thank you very much, just in case, yeah, yeah so yes, you warm up yes wd-40 right so it’s that quick spray yeah and we want to try and get things warmer and help to prevent injuries and a build up of tension and things like that. So you rock up and you think right, I’ve got five minutes five minutes.

Nish: 1:05:03

That’s it. Yeah, we’ll keep it short yeah, so shoulder mobility.

Denika: 1:05:06

What we can do is basically you’re holding your golf club now the big thing I want you to do first of all, and you can help me now. Sometimes you might find yourself a bit slouched in place yeah and if you’re here, we go practicing my swing there you go, like that, yep you’re not able to use your spine in the correct way as well, right?

Nish: 1:05:25

because you’re compensating.

Denika: 1:05:27

So first thing I would say to everybody is roll the shoulders back and down. So you want to roll is that?

Nish: 1:05:32

is that just to generally how to improve your posture?

Denika: 1:05:40

just to help improve the posture and also get those muscles, because you’ve a load of muscles around the neck and the back, yeah, the blade area. So through life, yeah, we all end up a bit hunched. I end up hunched when I’m on my laptop and you know it’s nothing that’s not in itself dangerous or bad for you but it’s actually thinking right. You know what? Let’s just check in with that posture let’s reset it.

Denika: 1:05:56

And then the other thing is a little softness in the knees. Which with golf, do you have a softness in your knees?

Nish: 1:06:00

yeah, you do. I mean you generally you can’t be rigid. No, like these aren’t locked. Yeah, they’ve got to have a bit of like moving and like you know.

Denika: 1:06:08

So, yes, I think softness in your knees. Shoulders roll back and down I’m talking like you know.

Nish: 1:06:13

I’m like some kind of swing guru. It’s like yeah, yeah, you know you got have a little bit of flex in the knee, you know, yeah, yeah, well, you do, yeah, it’s that is.

Denika: 1:06:21

I do know that yeah and then the other thing is like head position, so sometimes we can be like around his shoulder, chin, poking forward, and that puts a lot of strain on the back of the neck as well, and if you’re in that position, so I’m going to really exaggerate yeah, yeah, if you’re really like flexed head forward so you’re like hunched over, yeah, like your knees?

Nish: 1:06:39

yeah, you’re really not going to be irritated.

Denika: 1:06:41

Okay, elbow position, so yeah. So basically soft knees, and you want my feet about hip distance apart. Rollers roll the shoulders back head up, nice and tall, and then what we’re going to do is hold the golf club quite wide, so you’re holding it at the end right yeah, keep down in front of your hips to begin with yeah and all you’re gonna do is just bring that stick. Here I go get the stick.

Denika: 1:07:03

Yeah, yeah, just arm straight now, what your body might want to do is to let your lower back give in and bend backwards right, so you’re only going as far that’s it right, so arms above your head basically hands above the head, hold it there for about five seconds right, three, four, five and then bring that. So you want to keep your elbow straight and bringing it straight. Watch your microphone. Yeah, you’re bringing it straight down, that’s good and then relax.

Nish: 1:07:28

This is, this is. Do you know you? You actually just described just generally good golf posture. Yeah is it? Yeah, yeah, that’s generally good. So your knees are slightly bent. You got your head up, your head up. Yeah, don’t hunch your shoulders.

Denika: 1:07:34

Just described just generally good golf posture. Yeah, is it?

Nish: 1:07:35

yeah, yeah that’s generally good. So your knees are slightly bent. You got your head up. Your head up, yeah, don’t hunch your shoulders. Yeah, I’ll be like if I could do that, I’d be pretty happy with that as a start, but I’m not. I’m all hunched over.

Denika: 1:07:45

That’s the standard it’s interesting because that’s what we’re doing pilates. So when you start your pilates class, it’s all about 50 50 weight between the feet, softness in the knees, shoulders, back, growing nice and tall that’s it, yeah, so imagine imagine a piece of string on the top of your head string of the top of your head, yeah, with that piece of string.

Nish: 1:08:02

So that’s what, that’s all you do, like that’s. You’ve exactly described that. So that’s all you do, you like. You get that posture set up and then it’s just that. And then the club hits the floor and that’s it right so that’s what you’re trying to keep yeah I don’t get to that again. I’m like a hunch, way too much however.

Denika: 1:08:16

However, now you know you could and this can be an experiment for yourself because introduce a little, just pre-set up, yeah shoulder roll, but you could do. I was gonna say I don’t know how it is time wise, but I’m sure you get time. Before you go into it you could just think right, 50, 50 in my weight, softness in my knees, shoulders down and back yeah get into your position and then go, and what is really interesting is your muscle memory with your brain.

Denika: 1:08:40

Right brain is so responsive to you know, if you’re doing that multiple times, it will then become a learned behavior. So rather than you having to really think, right, am I 50, 50, oh, am I shoulders back it will become part of your muscle memory as well again for, uh, I know, obviously you’re not, you’re not familiar with it, but that’s a very big part of how golfers play, it’s preset routines.

Nish: 1:09:05

I mean, everyone’s on to that now because everyone’s on to the benefit of that, that muscle memory, and it’s not right. Actually it’s been everyone’s done it more for less so for a physical aspect, like maintenance of your body and making sure you can do it properly. It’s been more for mental, like now I’m ready to play a shot of golf, so I know what I’m doing. But actually, yeah, that just it does make sense, doesn’t it? There you go like hit the part yeah, and then if you try to, flex.

Nish: 1:09:30

That’s it. So if you try keeping your shoulders rolled back, yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, that is great golf swing posture Right there.

Denika: 1:09:39

And that exercise itself.

Nish: 1:09:40

So basically, as long as you’re in that, except for a strip to your. Pilates business there, danika, I like it Galates. Galates it’s a point.

Denika: 1:09:47

It couldn’t be Galates. That’s been trademarked, by the way listening idea can’t have that yeah, but um, yeah, if you’re doing basically you want to do five second, hold yeah and then take it down five times. So what’s?

Denika: 1:10:00

five times five, 25, 25 seconds that’s it that’s it 25 seconds to just get a bit more in tune with what your body’s doing good posture. The other way you can do it as well is more for the lower back. So basically you’d have your nice soft knees 50, 50 weight shoulders back and down, and this time you’re keeping your length through your spine and you’re just bringing it down to the knees, keeping a long spine, looking down towards the floor, yeah, and then you’re coming back up again.

Nish: 1:10:27

That’s it right so you basically run the club down your thighs.

Denika: 1:10:29

That’s it that club is like keeping the length for you.

Nish: 1:10:33

That’s it, yeah oh yeah, I can feel a stretch in the lower back there actually, and then coming back up, it’s a bit like what we call um a deadlift position.

Denika: 1:10:40

So when people in the gym it’s about keeping like, the length is that? Why they wear their belts and stuff like that sometimes they’ll wear that just to give them a bit more support. But if you’re doing that, it’s a really nice way to get your lower back um engaging and get it warmed up and I suppose then it comes back to your, your position then as well. Yeah, and you’re getting your muscles used to working in that way, because a lot of the time, um, with injuries, people might not be aware.

Denika: 1:11:06

You can’t watch yourself in a mirror, so it’s just a nice way, then, that you can cue yourself into actually and getting things moving around the area a little bit more as well. They’re just a few that you can have a go at, so use it as an experiment, let’s use it. Use you as the guinea pig um, how about that?

Nish: 1:11:22

you know I’m gonna, I think I’m gonna do that. I, you know I do, I’m sort of I’m flipping about my preps and all that kind of thing. But yeah, I mean, you know, I’m gonna play 100 tough courses here. And we’re talking tough courses. They’re going to be physically demanding, a lot of walking, all that kind of stuff, mentally demanding as well, because they’re difficult to play. You do need something that just means you can yeah, just to keep you good. Also, I’m doing golf trips. I’m playing back-to-back rounds as well.

Nish: 1:11:51

So you know, whereas previously I’d play, and get home to a bit goose, and yeah, you know, whereas previously I’d play and get only a bit goose. And you know, you know you’re not playing for another week that’s it but now you know yeah, actually I might be playing two or three rounds back to back, so yeah, yeah it’s important to do that, I think, isn’t it?

Denika: 1:12:04

yeah, yeah and you could use, use yourself as a guinea pig and I don’t know anyone listening. You know. Feel free that, but we could do this again another session. If there’s more specific injuries, we can always go through that.

Nish: 1:12:14

Well, let’s hope I don’t get any more injuries, let’s put it that way, but uh, yeah imagine all right, uh, we talked last week about the yeah, yeah, that’s, it’s interesting, that isn’t it? I mean I, I will, I’ll be more attuned. I think now to to you know the main areas. I mean, the good thing here is there’s nothing you said here that’s like okay, you’ve got to go and crush it in the gym or whatever it’s all mobility, it’s all just keeping flexible exactly, yeah, and the way I see it is.

Denika: 1:12:44

Hopefully it will help with the golf, but it’s just general stuff we should be doing as we get older unfortunately, after the age of 35 and now I’m in that category um, you do naturally get a slippery slope now that I’m afraid everything starts creaking every minute, every minute. So I wake up in the morning you think, oh my gosh, I’m so stiff, have I been run over?

Nish: 1:13:04

what’s happened?

Denika: 1:13:06

and it is so. They did a study years ago um into back pain right of who had changes on an mri scan, and so basically they scanned people who had back pain, people who didn’t have back pain and the people who didn’t have back pain after the age of 35 did have disc bulges, disc degeneration right, so it’s a. Thing it’s a thing. So in the, you know, in the general public, you’ll have people walking around with disc problems yeah, never had them before never had them before.

Denika: 1:13:36

But because they’re active and mobile, it doesn’t give them any issues. Whereas then people who have got issues, who stop walking, stop doing stuff around the house, your joints get stiffer, your muscles get deconditioned. That then causes more pain. That might then affect your sleep, it might affect your mood and then that’s where that pain cycle comes in in that vicious circle. So in general, if, if we could all be doing 150 minutes a week, doing a bit of stretching, bit of mobility, keep that cardiovascular um health going, then as we get older you’re less likely to get issues. It’s the classic thing people say oh, I retired, took up golf, yeah, but I’ve now got this, this and this going on.

Denika: 1:14:14

And it’s not necessarily the golf, it’s just because the sedentary yeah, the other six days a week yeah, so it’s just important that you’re keeping yourself moving and yeah it’s just, obviously it’s well.

Nish: 1:14:24

Previously it’s always had a very it’s an old man’s sport and all this kind of stuff, and then suddenly nobody talks about it. But tiger woods comes along and he’s like, built like an absolute break s house, yeah, um, and that’s changed. That culture’s changed. You know, training, and weight training particularly, is quite important now for professional golfers, but that’s not us, you know. But we need to do something that’s just keeping us in tune exactly, yeah yeah I think they’d be my top tips to right, I like it.

Denika: 1:14:54

Yeah, keep you going through the staggered. 80 of people are back pain yeah, it’s huge, yeah, and it’s and I think that’s the thing it’s so common. I mean this is me going off digressing now, but I can’t remember. It’s so msk. So musculoskeletal injury.

Denika: 1:15:10

I think it costs the nhs like so many billions of pound of people being out of work each year and back pain will be up there probably as the biggest um, the biggest problem, if you like, and I think with back pain is that fear of am I going to make myself worse if I push through?

Nish: 1:15:28

oh, I see, yeah, yes, you don’t. You don’t people sometimes hold?

Denika: 1:15:31

themselves back. So I think that that um pain score out of 10 is always really useful, because your pain threshold and mine can be totally different.

Denika: 1:15:40

Pain is very subjective, um, but I’ve got male pain thresholds you know it’s pretty low, it’s the worst pain ever yeah but if you think like five out of ten up to a five out of ten is acceptable because your tissues and the tendons and muscles, they all need some stimulus, because if they don’t get stimulus they don’t regenerate. Yeah, so, yeah, I find it all really so you need it.

Nish: 1:16:02

So no pain, no gain.

Denika: 1:16:03

You need a little bit a little bit, a little bit yeah a little bit of pain equals some gain.

Nish: 1:16:09

Um, yeah, okay, that’s, that’s great. Yeah, thank you very much. I think that’s very helpful to everybody and I think actually you know people listening. If you’ve played recreational golf, we’re all in the same boat, right? You turn up, you’re getting phone calls 10 minutes to go before your tea time, like you’re there, you’re there, you’re there, you’re there, and then you’re like rushing around, you put your bag together and you get there. And I’m sure they weigh, because would you carry it around?

Denika: 1:16:42

oh no, no. I was gonna say oh no, no, no, no, no, I’ve got. I’ve got a lovely, uh, a new three-wheeler trolley. It’s just mega let’s roll that around.

Nish: 1:16:46

Perfect?

Denika: 1:16:46

yeah, I’m not, I was gonna say, if you’re hoiking that around, that’ll be a few kg as well.

Nish: 1:16:49

So to carry that yeah I think that that, uh, that probably contributed to the back pain, right? I think yeah because, they have these amazing straps and whatever, but ultimately you’re carrying a really heavy rucksack and it’s always that up now and whatever, and it’s an extra little thing I mean in wintertime, depending, on course, in wintertime. So you have to carry your bag right and it’s a nice way to keep warm yeah, because you’re doing a bit of exercise, yeah, whatever, you can use it like that, so I will do it in the winter time.

Nish: 1:17:24

Too much to be worried about. Yeah, it’s a, I think we.

Nish: 1:17:35

Yeah, it’s quite easy to become quite a lazy golfer actually to be fair, which is why I think these warbucks are easy, yeah I mean, that’s actually the one temptation we do resist actually is taking the buggies out um, I mean they’re good fun, don’t get me wrong, yeah, uh, I think the attraction for everybody in the I think that’s a that’s probably a british slash european thing as well like in america everyone’s always on buggies, right, yeah, whereas here I think everyone’s it’s the joy of the walking and getting out and being outside. Yeah, yeah, it’s not, I like to think it’s that. Anyway, I don’t know, maybe it’s just we’re all tight, we also pay 35 quid for a buggy, but yeah, alright, nice, I think.

Denika: 1:18:17

I think we covered everything. I feel like we have actually.

Nish: 1:18:19

I feel like we’ve had a good chat there through we’ve covered everything I wanted to ask you.

Nish: 1:18:23

We’ve probably done what we should have done and digressed a little bit, but I think we’ve covered it all I said before, you don’t take a direct route, you don’t take the direct, you never pass go. You’ve got to go back a couple, a couple of steps and then come forward. So, yeah, no, I’ve really enjoyed that. Thank you very much. I could, I could see why we’ve we’ve not had this chat before because, uh, I think everybody around us would be like what the hell are these two going on about? But I love that. That was brilliant. Thank you, um, and you know again, thanks for taking time away from if you beautiful daughter, cara, to be here. So, um, yeah, thank you very much. Next time on the top 100 in 10 golf podcast, we’ve got an episode. I’m really looking forward to the listener q&a.